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Evolution, True or False?
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Evolution True or False
True
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False
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Evolution, True or False?
 PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:06 pm Reply with quote  
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  Durza
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I do not believe in evolution. In fact, science, and logic, completely destroys the thought of evolution, if you read between the lines, instead of simply believing what was told to you by the media.



P.S. This is not a religious discussion. This is scientific.
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:07 pm Reply with quote  
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  Supreme Commander Alor
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Can I ask exactly how do you explain the creation of all the creatures on the Earth? Are you a Fundamentalism follower, if not Darwinism?
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:13 pm Reply with quote  
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  Durza
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I am "religious" and cannot give my full opinion, exept through a
pm, and I am only saying that there is no possible way that all the creatures on earth have become as there are out of evolution.
I'm not going to say any of this is out of my religion, but scientific study.
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:15 pm Reply with quote  
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  Supreme Commander Alor
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May I ask what Scientific Studies prompted the disbelief in the Theory of Evolution? And if these scientific studies don't believe that evolution is the right answer, what do they scientifically suggest replaces it?
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:19 pm Reply with quote  
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  High Prophet Crozeus
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Without breaking the rules, it's hard to give a valid reason to back this up.

But I am a firm supporter of evolution.
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Durza
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Some sort of alternative. If evolution is incorrect (which I believe it is) the only other options are to either, just not care and live until you die, or believe in something, that is not found incorrect by science.
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Supreme Commander Alor
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I'm pretty sure that your post did not come close to answering my questions, which I will reiterate for you in a nice list.

  • What Scientific Studies prompted the disbelief in the Theory of Evolution?
  • What do the Scientific Studies (not you or religion) suggest replace evolution as a viable explanation?


I'm not being a jerk, but this is a Debate topic, and I will try to debate as well as I possibly can. While also trying to get information about these studies you reference.
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  Durza
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Sorry. And The scientific studies were, biology, chemistry, and anatomy.
Please clarify your second question Are you asking me what scientific studies suggest "Replace evolution" as an idea, or are you asking me what "replaces" evolution?
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  Supreme Commander Alor
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Scientific Studies, not as in classes that you took, but an actual panel of scientists that researched the area. That's what a scientific study is, not meaning what you studied in science in school.

If you have an actual scientific study, then what does it suggest replace evolution as an idea?
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:56 pm Reply with quote  
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  Durza
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What I meant by scientific study, was my reading of others scientific study. And the idea to replace evolution, was, creationism, although not all were, and while you may say this effects my view, it is miniscule. And anyway, if evolution was true, why are there no intermediate fossils in the fossil record? And don't you think that, if evolution is true, that there would be many more odd species? And if evolution is true, it would have taken so long for an ape (or any other species no matter how close it had been to humanity) to evolve into a human (And for all the genetics to fit EXACTLY right, an completely by chance, this would take an almost INFINITE amount time) EVERY bone (yes, lucy and ardi) would be dust? And even darwin tried to disprove his theory, MORE than prove it.

P.S. Thank you for finding my fault, so that I could refine my argument.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:32 am Reply with quote  
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  High Mage Serratus
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Durza wrote:
1. What I meant by scientific study, was my reading of others scientific study.

2. And the idea to replace evolution, was, creationism, although not all were, and while you may say this effects my view, it is miniscule.

3. And anyway, if evolution was true, why are there no intermediate fossils in the fossil record?

4. And don't you think that, if evolution is true, that there would be many more odd species?

5. And if evolution is true, it would have taken so long for an ape (or any other species no matter how close it had been to humanity) to evolve into a human (And for all the genetics to fit EXACTLY right, an completely by chance, this would take an almost INFINITE amount time) EVERY bone (yes, lucy and ardi) would be dust? And even darwin tried to disprove his theory, MORE than prove it.

P.S. Thank you for finding my fault, so that I could refine my argument.


I put spacing and numbering into your post to make it easier to respond to.

1. Reading about other people's research is not research. Darwin spent most of his life developing and improving the Theory of Evolution and you intend to equivalate this with high school science classes?

2. Creationism is a religious idea, not a scientific idea, and does not provide a reasonable alternative to evolution.

3. Fossilisation is rare process, the majority of dead organisms are broken down by consumers and reprocessed into new living things. That is why there are few, not no, intermediate fossils in the fossil record. Besideswhich, even a complete absence of intermediate fossils still shows gradual change in the aspects of living creatures.

4. What do you mean odd species? There are no odd species, only different species. Your narrow definition of odd doesn't apply to science, science doesn't measure the abnormality of living things, abnormality is subjective.

5. Because changes are gradual, not "I don't like this climate, I'm going to lose some hair." Only minute changes occur generation to generation and the majority of mutations in organisms are cancers, evolution is a long, complex and rare process that can only be viewed on a scale of hundreds of thousands of years at the smallest.

You seem to think that evolution occurs by chance, it doesn't. When a species is faced with an environmental problem, whether it is their internal or external environment, they adapt to the conditions that they are faced with. If an animal has a great deal of hair to keep them warm in a cold climate and the climate starts to get warmer, they gradually grow less hair as each generation goes by. Other mutations may occur, but species only keep the ones that are helpful, except in the case of recessive genes.

So, the reason it is believable for our genetics to be similar (not identical, if you think monkey and human genes are identical, your knowledge of evolution is even more lacking than I had previously believed) to monkeys, is that it doesn't occur by chance, it happens because it is useful for it to happen. The only way that creationism could be true is if the Earth's environment has never changed, when, in fact, we know that Antarctica was once free of ice, there was once a dust winter caused by a massive asteroid striking the Earth, and most dramatically of all, every singe continent on the Earth was once joined as one. Creationism is impossible because without evolution, no animals would be alive in Antarctica, no animals would have survived the dust winter and all life on Earth would have been killed by the seperation of Pangaea.

As for whatever you're saying about dust, reiterate your argument more clearly and I'll deconstruct that too.

EDIT: GAH, what happened to my code?

DOUBLE EDIT: Thanks, Marix.
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Last edited by High Mage Serratus on Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:40 am Reply with quote  
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  Supreme Commander Alor
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You need quotes around the name when you are quoting. And you spelled it "colour=yellow" it is supposed to be "color=yellow".

I'll have an actual response up later.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:46 am Reply with quote  
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  Durza
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1. Have you done any test yourself? I never said that the books I read were high school books, naby were college books, and were did you learn any of the things YOU have used in this argument? I hope not from books. And I am doing the same thing here, developing my argument.

2. Evolution, is a religion, because religion is faith, and it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution, and is a reasonable alternative.

3. I would have a better argument for this one, but I don't have the time.

4. That was good what you said in your number four, and you are correct. Thanks for finding my fault. (How many times will I have to thank you in this topic?)

5. Give me proof that YOU have found, that antartica was once free of ice, that there was a dust winter caused by some asteroid, and that every continent was once linked. And if your "gradual" changes do happen, why haven't the people living in siberia grown hair all over their bodies? and are you saying that your body changes, because you simply think it would be better? And don't say anything about winter or summer coats of animals, because my dog is a great pyr, and he still has his enormous coat, And we live in kriffing texas. About a week ago it was over 100 degrees. Texas is hot.


I've decided there is no point in saying my statment about "dust" again.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:37 am Reply with quote  
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  High Mage Serratus
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1. I learned the initial, basic information from school and then the more advance and important details from scientific journals. And there is quite a big difference between developing and proving a scientific theory, travelling the world to get evidence (what Darwin did) and reading a couple of books, telling yourself all the logic and evidence is wrong, blaming the media as propagandists and then turning to some crackpot theory (what you did).

2. It takes no faith to believe in evolution because there is evidence of evolution.

3. No, you have no argument. You could at least admit it instead of brushing it aside.

4. Think nothing of it.

5. I haven't done anything to prove that Antarctica was once free of ice, I haven't done anything to prove there was a dust winter, I haven't done anything to prove the existence of Pangaea. I am not a scientist. I have an interest in science and I do quite well in science at school but I am not a scientist. But scientists have proved all these things.

We know Antarctica was once free of ice, because as a part of Pangaea, it did not rest at the south pole. Even without Pangaea, stratigraphy shows a time when Antarctica had abundant flora that couldn't have possibly survived in Antarctic conditions without evolving to match the changing climate.

We know that there was a dust winter because stratigraphy shows the presence of dust from the collision and a large-scale dying of sunlight-dependent plants.

We know that Pangaea existed because of the fossil record, magnetic abnormalities in rocks, common geological trends and mountain chain continuity.

The reason people in Siberia have not grown hair all over their bodies is because Siberia is not as cold as you seem to think it is. Only the extreme north of Siberia is the tundra that most people think of when they think of Siberia. Nonetheless, even if all of Siberia were tundra, the reason the people of Siberia would not have grown hair is because humans have slowed down their own evolution by creating things to make up for our faults.

We made cars to make up for our lack of speed, we made cranes to make up for our lack of heigh and strength, we made knifes to make up for our lack of sharp appendages, we made calculators to make up for our slow thought process (relatively, in comparison to the machines we create) and we made clothes to make up for our lack of fur. The reason Siberian people would not be hairy is because they have coats. With coats, they wouldn't have a reason to adapt to the cold.

And no, I'm not saying that we consciously decide to keep certain evolved characteristics. What I'm saying is that when we reproduce, for the most part, we pass on only useful characteristics. Unfortunately, some genes are recessive and our bodies don't recognise them as undesirable, which is why people can pass on genetic diseases.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:58 am Reply with quote  
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  Durza
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1. I believe it would be better classified as "Crackpot Hypothesis"

2. There alledgedly is evidence that other people found, but since you haven't found anything for yourself, you are having faith that what they are telling you is true.

3. No, not at the moment, but I could probable make one up, if you give me a few hours to think about it.

4. Cool

5. (Read number 2) What if they lied about the stratigraphy? What if they lied about Pangaea? And ok, that was a good answer.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Aequitas
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If religion or creationism is mentioned once more, I'm asking this debate be closed.

They are forbidded topics.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:54 pm Reply with quote  
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  Durza
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I apologize, but it was neccessary. It will never happen again, because I am more than likely not going to post here again, or in the ccoruscant debates. It is not what I joined for. I joined for fun.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:55 pm Reply with quote  
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  Fien'Dur
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One question. Why are we not allowed to have a convo about religion?
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Aequitas
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Ask Will. He made the rules, us Staff just enforce them.

Basically, Religion is a touchy subject. You can see how heated people get over moves in a duel, can you imagine how heated something might get over someone's religion?
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:58 pm Reply with quote  
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  Durza
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It is only allowed in Personal Messages.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:58 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Aequitas
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Correct.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:44 am Reply with quote  
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  Supreme Commander Alor
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It appears that Serratus has my end of the debate under control.

But I'd like to point out that there are intermediate fossils. In fact they have just found another fossil set, that appears to be a common ancestor to modern day Chimpanzees and Humans. We have multitudes of fossils that link species together. The evolutionary process for humans started over 2.3 to 2.4 million years ago in Africa, when the entire Homo species broke off from the Australopithecus. Meaning they were no longer close enough in physical attributes to be the same species. Around 5-7 millions years ago, the human branch broke away from the only other "Homo" species, Chimpanzees. The humans went through several evolutions after that period, which include the  Homo erectus, which inhabited Asia, and Homo neanderthalensis, which inhabited Europe. The final step to Homo Sapiens occurred 400,000-250,000 years ago. Evolution is a slow process. You just don't wake up as a new species. All of the changes made take time, and were individual. Maybe the tail started to get shorter, or the wings started to become feathered. But it isn't a miracle that happens overnight.

2. Well considering that Scientists haven't burned anyone at the stakes yet, I'm inclined to believe them over the alternative "answer". I'm confident that they aren't creating this up as they go. The genetic codes in the fossils found are not easy to create. It is not faith to believe something which has proof. Faith is believing in something which cannot be proven, like a religious deity.

5. Evolution only occurs when there is something that causes death. If all of the hairless humans in Siberia died of the cold. Then only those with fur would have survived. But as Serratus pointed out, we created our own "mini-evolutions" to make up that time. Otherwise, you are right, any peoples in cold areas would be furry.

[[Way to go Serratus! You used up all my arguments before I can post them so far. Very Happy]]
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:50 am Reply with quote  
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I'm not going to go start a debate, I would only like to say that I do not believe in evolution.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:24 am Reply with quote  
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  High Mage Serratus
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:40 am Reply with quote  
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  Durza
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Thrax, its nice to know someone agrees with me, and serratus, I do congradulate you, not because you won, but because your argument was better thought out. Perhaps if I had thought it out the previous morning before the debate happened, perhaps I would be the victor.




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