| Archive for The Dark Sith Lords Where the most poweful Sith of the time meet. |
| Darth Acheron |
Discussion of Betrayal WARNING *SPOILERS*Here you can discuss the first book in the Legacy of the Force series to your heart's content without havign to worry about spoiling it for anyone. |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
Hmm. I'll wait to say anything until everyone else has their copy. But since this is in Fan Fiction, moved to Books, Comics and Television. | ||
| High Commander Vexen |
I hope Jacen turns evil though it is almost deffinite he will
Shadow you got your copy because your Sister knows that EU writer right |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
He does turn Sith. But whether or not it's in this book you shall have to read. Mooahaha. 
No, we got it because of our friend in the Star Wars shop here in Disney. |
||
| Trivas |
If you are lying and he does not turn Sith, I will hunt you down and make you WISH he turned Sith. I have been waiting for that moment for a long time. | ||
| Emperor Shadow |
He goes Sith. It's been confirmed. But I'm not going into detail. | ||
| Darth Acheron |
Woops, I was sure I posted it in the right forum...  .
|
||
| Emperor Shadow |
No worries. But I'm still really itching to tell everyone what happens. | ||
| Darth Acheron |
Then do! I'll find out one way or another before I read it, as I won't buy it until its released as Paperback, so I may as well be spoiled,  . Besides, this is what thisd thread is for.
|
||
| Darth Acrimonus |
A question to those who've read it: Is it good enough to justify buying it now rather than waiting for paperback release (keep in mind, in Australia it's currently $50) | ||
| Lord Scourge |
Well, I think so, but then, I got a discount - when you say it's $50 in Australia, I hope you're saying that the Australian dollar is worth half what the American dollar is, because it's retailing at $26 here.
Shadow, this is the spoiler discussion, if anyone complains about saying what happens, then they get smacked for reading a well-marked spoiler thread. I knew enough not to read anything in here until after I finished the novel - thanks for letting me know it was out, incidentally. Oh, my... by the Sith Lords of Korriban, the first 304 pages were fairly tedious.... nothing but Jedi, and one even a Bothan Jedi... oh, it was such a delight to see her die. Anyhow, I'll skip my opinion of the modern novel as a dead art form, and get to the story itself.... I would have enjoyed it more if Allston could have kept me guessing a little more - Lumiya's fake name was nearly an anagram of Shira Brie, and since I've known for more than a year that she was coming back in the first novel in the Legacy series, I spotted that immediately. So when we finally meet the character on 305, I knew who she was well before she made references to having met Leia and Luke, years earlier. The identity of Darth Vectivus had me guessing for a bit, but that's mostly because I haven't read the NJO - I think if I knew Jacen like the rest of you do from those novels, I think it would have been slapping me in the face before they even got to the asteroid hideout. It was easy to figure out that Lumiya was taking Jacen away to turn him to the Dark Side, but I'll admit I underestimated just how she would do it. I certainly appreciate Allston's methods when it came to that.... and he does come up with some damn good lines, now and again. Turning to the Sith out of agreement with a well-reasoned argument. This Jacen boy does show promise... Oh, and I still have way too many questions about what Lumiya was doing for the past 30-odd years. I suppose I'm going to have to break down and read Traitor now, aren't I? -Scourge |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
I would read any book with a little bird named Vergere in it.
Okay, so when I was chatting with Aaron Allston, he told me to watch the whole Vectivus thing and if I dug too deeply into it, it would drive me crazy. So I asked him if it was Sidious/Palaptine and he just smiled and waved me on. I'm nearly positive Lumiya (who I agree it was completely easy to see that it was her) is using the "old, good Sith" angle to further manipulate Jacen. And I was majorly ticked when Centerpoint didn't destroy something. C'mon, Anakin! Go rogue! |
||
| Lord Scourge |
...and now we know that your Patron is as much Sith as mine.
If you want to go insane trying to follow the logic in a novel, pick up Finnegan's Wake, Naked Lunch, The Castle, VALIS, Illuminatus! or Foucault's Pendulum. There's nothing brain-maddening about Darth Vectivus that isn't resolved after a single read for me. Lumiya had droids build the gaily colored house, and collected random busts for the figures. Everything else is simply using the long term view, and always using the past tense to describe the career of Vectivus. -Scourge |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
I read Illuminatus! to a point but then I am fairly sure I put it down in favor of one of the new Star Wars novels that had just been released at the time.
Well, we suspect Vergere is as much Sith as Lumiya (who herself has admitted she'll never be a true Sith). Whether or not Lumiya was using information she pieced together from Jedi or other sources remains undetermined. Jacen can be manipulated VERY easily and using Vergere's simple namesake and one phrase of hers was enough to convince him she was a Dark Side Adept. If she was, only the Star Wars gods know at this point. |
||
| Lord Scourge |
Well, Lumiya said should could never become a Master of the Sith, but described both herself and Vergere as Sith trainees. Her explanation does the best job of reconciling the preponderance of Sith-like adepts around and about the movie Sith, and still allowing Lucas' Rule of Two to remain intact.
Personally, I'm inclined to believe her as the most likely one to know whether or not Vergere was trained as a Sith - who would know better? Oh, and I had to laugh at the exchange: "But it's not very Sithly. The Sith citadel at Ziost—" "I've been there. Very gloomy place. Unnecessarily so." -Scourge |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
You must read Traitor. Vergere employed a tactic where lying and telling the truth meshed and elements of neither came to form what I call the Vergere Principle that made Jacen able to survive his time with the Yuuzhan Vong.
Lumiya- if she talked to any Jedi- would have known about that and how she changed Jacen. I like to imagine all of that about Vergere being Sithy and all, but I cannot help but think her name may have been used to further Jacen's path down the Dark Side. I smiled at that but found it fitting to what she had said about Vectivus being a kind old man who died peacefully with family and friends. It proved that she herself felt the Sith were sort of gothic and she didn't think they had to be because some of them- Vectivus if you believe her- were not so evil. |
||
| Lord Scourge |
For a thousand years, the Sith existed without producing galaxy-conquering madmen.
Yeah, after reading Betrayal, I figured I was going to have to read Traitor. -Scourge |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
Well, I'll give you that, but they may not all have been so happy as Vectivus was.
I'd also read Destiny's Way. |
||
| Lord Scourge |
Traitor comes before Destiny's Way, and Traitor seems more relevant right now, so I'll get Traitor first, and then decide. I really hate a lot of the concepts behind the YV, and think they're as hideously un-Star Wars-like as Waru and Ken, the Jedi Prince.
For example, when reading Betrayal, I came across the bit: ...the Yuuzhan Vong coralskipper, a massive single-pilot organic starfighter protected by thick shells and by voids, mobile singularities that could slide in front of incoming lasers or missles and swallow them completely. and I thought to myself, "that's the dumbest f***ing thing I've ever read." If I ever have the time, I'm going to run a long-term Star Wars RPG that will happen about 24-30 ABY, and in my head create something else to replace NJO entirely. -Scourge |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
To me, Destiny's Way has a lot more on the dark aspects of Jacen and Vergere than Traitor does to some degree.
I agree they were a terrible choice. But then I compare them to the Killiks and I would rather read a thousand books with the Vong than another one with the stupid Killiks. |
||
| Lord Scourge |
I haven't read the Killiks stuff, either, so I can't say - most SW novels I read back in high school - the Thrawn trilogy and Shadows of the Empire were the last SW novels I read before I developed my distaste for the modern novel form... and if I think that novels written for adults are bad, you can imagine how painful I find young adult books... I've read a few SW novels since then, but pretty much just for information about the Sith.
However, Betrayal is the first novel set after the destruction of Exar Kun's spirit that I've read, rather than just read the synopsis on the Star Wars Timeline-Gold. There haven't been any Sith in them, so I haven't particularly cared. When I heard Lumiya would return in a novel, I knew I'd have to read it, though - and putting aside my basic distaste for the writing style, I liked what Allston did with my mentor, and how he has turned Vader's grandchild to the Dark Side. Oh, and I can continue my backstory fanfic now, too. -Scourge |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
Killiks are evil. Denning got so much outrage that he promised never to bring them back.
Thrawn trilogy sort of amazes me. Jacen or Mara's going to die. Jacen's done too much to Ben for Mara not to spear him. Either that or Luke will go all bug on him and eliminate him. Oh, good. It will assist me in my story if you work on yours. I like having details to build off of. |
||
| Lord Scourge |
In case it's not obvious, the figure at the end of the first part of my backstory was Lumiya. I just had to know what her position was when she next appeared, so that I can end my time with her in a way that doesn't interfere with her official story. Because she thinks that there have been no true Sith since ROTJ, she either has to think I am dead (and died before she could teach me enough of the Sith arts), or we leave on terms where she would not consider me a candidate for the Sith - in either case, it allows me to join our Empire as someone with a great deal of knowledge, but not yet a Sith in my own right.
Incidentally, since my last post, I went out to pick up the latest KOTOR comic, and stopped by Half Price Books while I was out - where I found a copy of Traitor for $3.50 - they didn't have Destiny's Way in stock. -Scourge |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
Ah, kudos on the Lumiya connection (kind of obvious but still enjoyable).
Oh, that's good. I think you might like it. It's not like normal novels in my opinion. |
||
| Lord Scourge |
I am called Scourge for many reasons, one of which is my choice of weapon. Given the timing of my character in the SW chronology, and my choice of wielding a lightwhip, who better for a master to teach me that weapon?
My lightwhip is not the dual-weapon that Lumiya uses, however, but a single line such as the one Githany has in Jedi vs. Sith. Did you also see it coming a mile off, that Lumiya would hide her whip within her cyborg body? -Scourge |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
Naturally. How else would she have done it? I mean c'mon, it's Star Wars. You think they'd come up with something vaguely originial. | ||
| Lord Scourge |
There's nothing new under the sun.
One of my favorite aspects of Star Wars is the deliberate use of that - epic and mythic story values being recycled. There have been magical monsters, demons and kami who have pulled their weapon from hiding in their own body for millennia. One of the reasons why I particularly liked that bit was because unlike the other times when I saw something coming a mile off, when Allston executed it, it didn't read like he thought he was much more clever than he really was. -Scourge |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
Yeah, I like Aaron Allston. He's got humor in the X-Wing series he's carried over everywhere else and doesn't let his ego over-inflate and let him imagine he's the best writer on earth. | ||
| Darth Acheron |
Perhaps a completly different race, far more technologically advanced - and from that galaxy - projected into everyone's minds the images of the Yv to cover their true identity? That would be interesting, and they could still be lurking out there... .
|
||
| High Commander Vexen |
that would be awesome like say the YV are almost wiped out and they come to the new Republic for help against a more powerful alien race that would be awesome | ||
| Lord Scourge |
Back to the topic at hand, I have to mention that Allston did deliver one of my favorite things to happen in Star Wars - a dead Bothan! Not just that, but a dead Bothan Jedi!
"First thing we do, let's kill all the Bothans." -Darth Bard -Scourge |
||
| High Commander Vexen |
I agree Scourge | ||
| Emperor Shadow |
I asked him about that and he hates Bothans.
|
||
| Lord Scourge |
...as does anyone with sense.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/08/25 -Scourge |
||
| Darth Acheron |
Thats not what I meant... |
||
| High Commander Vexen |
yeah but it is what I meant | ||
| Trivas |
I did not read this, but I do wish to protest something because I am angry. I was in the bookstore, Betrayal was in my hands and I was in line, and my mom called and told me to hurry outside because she was waiting for me (we were out of town and I did not have my car). She told me not to by it and I had to put it back. It was a sad moment for me. I nearly couldn't stand it, but I had to (either that or walk back 10 miles to where we were staying). | ||
| Emperor Shadow |
That would totally ruin my trip. I would probably take my lightsabers and demand the book from some random stranger on the road and make them secure my copy. | ||
| Trivas |
Oh well, I went today and got it at Target for $18 USD on sale. That is nice. I will have it read in a few days. It would normally take me a day and a half, but I have work and summer classes. | ||
| Emperor Shadow |
Kudos. I greatly enjoyed it! | ||
| Trivas |
Wait, when did the Bothan die? I did not catch her death.
Oh well, I did not enjoy this book as much as I wanted to. It was poorly matched with the rest of SW, the characters were not in line with how they are in the rest of the books, the plot was pathetic, the "Sith" were unrealistic and, to put it mildly, horrible. I hated the Sith and everything they had about them. Jacen's "conversion" was horrible and sappy. The battles were okay, but the logic behind them was weak or nonexistant. I found the entire issue stupid and a waste of SW time. Corellians trying to resist the GA??? That is STUPID. The GA would utterly crush them. The Mon Cals could destroy them. The BOTHANS could lay waste to them. The Corellians don't stand a chance. Then, you have Han, Leia, and Wedge constantly changing sides or helping both sides. All of them would support the GA instantly, especially Wedge. Their supposed "loyalty" to their homeplanet is a joke, they served the NR/GA for longer than they ever thought of living on Corellia. I have more, but I am tired and want to sleep. Overall, I give this book a 3 of 10. Aaron Allston really disappointed me on this book. His other books were great, but this one flopped in my opinion. |
||
| Lord Scourge |
The Bothan dies right towards the end - the actual death is pp. 379-80, but the events leading up to it and the reasons for why she has to die are given on pp. 370-376.
Personally I loved Jacen's conversion, it was the one part of the book I really got into. It is precisely my kind of Sith who can fully embrace the Dark Side because of a convincing argument.... I loved that part. I don't know how well the characterizations matched the other books very well, as I haven't been reading NJO (except I picked up and read Traitor - I'll probably have to continue onto Destiny's Way as well). Lumiya was very different, of course, but in a logical manner that I saw as consistent with the simple fact that it was 30 years after her last appearance. Anyhow, I didn't enjoy most of it, either, but I don't enjoy most novels. Allston's writing style isn't as painful as Foster's, about equally painful as Anderon's, and more painful than Zahn's. When that's how I see modernist prose fiction, and I'm really just reading these books for information, you can understand that I actually rate it higher than you do within the context of SW novels, because I don't have very high expectations to begin with. -Scourge |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
In my opinion they got three excellent writers for Legacy and I think Allston did an excellent job keeping with Jacen's persona from NJO. And considering thirteen-fifteen different authors worked on NJO, that's no small feat. | ||
| Lord Scourge |
Heh - just imagine a SW novel from my idea of an excellent writer.... for example, a tale of conspiracy and betrayal by Umberto Eco that you can read five times and each time figure out more of the intricate and incredibly confusing plots being weaved by all the different characters.... A psycho-sexual investigation into the nature of the Dark Side by Robert Anton Wilson....
I think those are the only authors I truly enjoy, who are still alive. Oh, but then we could get into my favorite writers who died before Star Wars was even created.... can you imagine a Rebellion-era story of Imperial oppression by Franz Kafka? A bit of detective pulp from Coruscant's underbelly by Philip K. Dick? A day in the life of a moisture farmer by James Joyce? Ah, in a perfect world... -Scourge |
||
| Emperor Shadow |
I imagine I'm well-grounded in modern literature though I do prefer pre-American Civil War books. After that it sort of enters a lull for me and then comes out of it in the last decade or so. | ||
| Darth Acheron |
Ooh, I can't take it anymore! my mum was going to bank $60 of mine to go towards an X-Box 360, but I just have to get this book! 
|
||
| Trivas |
Well, I personally think they did fair on Jacen, but the other characters were really off target. Wedge, Leia, and Han were so far off it was not even funny. Han actually liked Zekk in the other books because he saves Jaina's life so much. Here, he did not for some stupid reason. Wedge was not loyal in any way shape or form to Corellia, especially not Thrackan, he was a NR/GA diehard. Leia would never betray the NR/GA because she spent so long in charge of it and serving it. Luke's characterization was not too bad, but he was a little distant. Mara's and Jaina's weren't too far off either, but they were not major characters at all. As for Ben, we really don't know much of what he is like since he was so young in the other books.
Which Bothan are you talking about? That wasn't the girl Jacen killed, Nelani Dinn. She was human (look at the Dramatis Personae). The only Bothan in the book was Kolir Hu'yla who only got bloodied on Corellia. She did not die. The one thing that really sets me off is that they did not have Tenel Ka or Alana in this book, not even mentioned except one reference by Jacen as having his heart taken by another when Nelani suggested starting something between them and a sort of humorous line by Han saying he wanted grandchildren and Jacen sort of smiling. I was really hoping that they two of them would be official now and that FIVE years had passed. It is stupid that they aren't and I really want to know how powerful Alana is. Jacen+Tenel Ka (both strong in the Force)=Lady Vader II? Also, why in all the seven Corellian hells aren't at least ONE of the two Solo kids married? What, are the authors waiting until they are fifty before they finally get one of them married off? The two are what, 35 or something now? They both have significant others so when are they going to get married??????? That really angered me too. After thinking about this book for a few days after reading it, I stand by my rating of 3 out of 10. This book had so many disappointing points to it that I cannot get it any higher. I wanted to know more about who was still alive and who was not. What happened to Karrde, Booster, Streen, Kam and Tionne, Katarn and all the other minor/major characters of the past??? One of my biggest angers was no mention of Jagged Fel. They sort of had him MIA in the stupid Dark Nest trilogy and I wanted to know if he survived (anyone else wished that he got Jaina instead of the spoiled urchin Zekk????). |
||
| High Commander Vexen |
about Alana she died dude in case you didn't know | ||
| Lord Scourge |
That was my mistake, I was thinking Nelani was Bothan. -Scourge |
||
| Darth Acheron |
Wha?? Since when was Allana dead? | ||
| Emperor Shadow |
Never. | ||
| High Commander Vexen |
I thought she dies in Swarm War | ||
| Trivas |
No, she does not. She is saved by her parents. | ||
| Darth Acheron |
Yeah, phew. You had me there for a minute Vexen, you had me thinking the new generation's first member was killed in betrayal, but yeah, she doesn't die in the Dark nest Trilogy. | ||
| Darth Acheron |
Ah! yes! Finally I have the book and am howing into it, . See ya'll 'round once i finish it, .
|
||
| Emperor Shadow |
Enjoy! And don't get too upset at the puseo-Anakin's very brief appearance. | ||
| Darth Acheron |
Finished, and it was awesome!
I have a few qualms with it though, not so much the story, but some things that don't make sense. Why didn't Vergere, after discovering who Palpatine was, tell the Jedi Council? She knew she was being hunted, and could have told them the truth, forcing them to see she wasn't deceiving them. Sure they would ask how she knew, and she would have had to tell them she had been trained as a Sith, which may have resulted in her death, but isn't that the "new" ideals of the Sith? the sacrifice of one or two lives for the lives of millions? She was willing to sacrifice herself for Jacen, why not for the entire Jedi Order? The fact that little was made of Count Dooku's mention was surprising, as I would have thought they would have reacted with surprise, wanting to know who he was. If so little knowledge existed of the Clone Wars ers that they couldn't find out about their parents, two of the most influencial people in the war, surely they would have had no data on the CIS leader, who hid in the shadows for much of the war, yet no reaction was given, even when they reacted to Aayla's name being mentioned. I know a lot of people like Nelani, but I hated her. She was the classic example of the Old Republic Jedi, disbelieving everything unless it agreed with their views, arrogant in their views, pushing their ideals on others. I was quite happy when she died, as she was becoming quite the pest... .
|
||
| Emperor Shadow |
The point about Vergere being a Sith Adept, we don't know if that is fact. It is a plausible theory, but Lumiya could be telling Jacen his favorite person in the entire galaxy did that just to put him a step closer to turning.
If it is true, it's Vergere! That's pretty much the only answer we need. She probably knew about the Yuuzhan Vong and knew if she told the Council, she wouldn't have been able to assist in the future. I think Artoo's holos included a lot of information about the Clone Wars previously unknown, including some on Dooku. I agree. |
||
| Trivas |
True, we don't know how much of her story was true. For all we know, she was just playing around with Jacen trying to turn him. You saw in the last scene with her that she was not playing Jacen straight. He is walking into a trap and I can't wait to see what it is. | ||
| Lord Scourge |
But some of us loved Lumiya twenty years ago, and saddened by her absence ever since.... personally, I'm more inclined to believe the words of the lovely cybernetic Dark Lady, than the words of any Jedi....
-Scourge |
||
| Darth Acheron |
Me too. She seemed genuine, going so far as to allow herself to be captured if need be. At that point if I were lying, I would have lashed out, killing Nelani, and telling Jacen how I just demonstarted the kind of power he could have.
By the way, did you see the similarities between the end of this and Anakin's fall? A Sith tells him the flaws in the jedi, and how the Sith are better, and somone tries to stop him listening, but he says that he needs to listen. The person goes so far as to try and take the Sith into custody, with him stopping them, violently, so as to listen further to the Sith. Then, the person who tried to take the Sith into custody is killed, cementing his fall to the DS. Him is Anakin and Jacen. |
||
| Darth Acrimonus |
I wonder. If Anakin (Solo) had lived through the N.J.O. do you think it would be him, and not Jacen, who would become a Sith? | ||
| Darth Acheron |
That's interesting, and considering he was my favourite character, I certainly hope so,  .
|
||
| Emperor Shadow |
Yes. Jacen was the one supposed to die in Star by Star but Lucas forbid it.
Also, Vergere never lied to Jacen (that has been proven by his time away from her). Lumiya is a quasi-Sith Lady and that gives her an immediate reason to lie. |
||
| Trivas |
I am glad that Anakin died instead of Jacen. Anakin was just a stupid grunt that ran head on into everything without thinking of his actions. Jacen, while he had his problems, at least thought through things a little more.
I still think that Lumiya is lying or at least not telling the entire truth. |
||
| High Commander Vexen |
I hate both Anakin's Jacen rules
Skywalker was only good for killing the Seps and killing some jedi Solo was almost totaly useless |
||
| Darth Ezan |
Without him there would be no Jacen. But I agree with Anakin I got up out of my seat and did the Peltvic Thrust dance when he died. | ||
| Darth Acheron |
Thats sad because I quite liked him, as he was the closest of the new generation to have kids first, until he got axed... | ||