Fien'Dur
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Lightsaber Combat RanksThis is a continued discussion from my character profile.
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High Prophet Crozeus
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What is it you mean?
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Mage Superior Odin
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You were discussing the best duelist(s) and its order on Fien'dur's profile topic, and I think he asks for a list. I also like the idea of having dynamic lists like this, i.e. one for force and one for saber. But I dont believe here is a right place to have them.
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Venedictos Appo
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He's actually asking for discussion on reform of the way saber skills are ranked in Char Profiles. He also apparently thinks that Marix sets them.
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Lord Aequitas
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((For the record, the list discussed is not canon and merely an OOC reference guide for myself and the OOC operator of Ven.))
The combat ranks are set forward by the Council of Games and Canon.
However, seeing as this Council is going to be merged with the Pop and Rank one, no-one save the Emperor can voice a ruling on this issue.
However, as High Historian and the leading authority on site canon, save the Emperor, I am ruling that the expertise that Fien has assigned to his lightsaber abilities are not consistent with Sith Canon.
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High Prophet Crozeus
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Ah, I always assumed that the "ranks" we assigned to our profiles were just as a guideline to our ability.
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Darth Thrax
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Just a heads up, I am not just saying this because I know Fien in real life.
Vendictos needs to keep quiet because he has "apparently" only been here for maybe a month and doesn't know everything that is going on here.
What Fien was referring to was the fact that Marix set the skill ranking like this:
Skill Level Distinction:
Elite
Expert
Mastered
Proficient
And that is is why Fien set three of his forms to mastered.
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Lord Aequitas
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| Darth Thrax wrote: | | Vendictos needs to keep quiet because he has "apparently" only been here for maybe a month and doesn't know everything that is going on here. |
Ven is a member of the site and as such, is entitled to voice his opinion on any matter.
And I would not assume that you know "everything that is going on here" either. If I remember correctly, you disappeared for a few months here and there.
An apprentice, which is what he is, would not have 3 lightsaber forms Mastered.
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Darth Thrax
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Did I ever say that he wasn't a member? I didn't think so. I only said that he has been here for maybe a month and should keep quiet on things that he probably knows nothing about.
And I also didn't say that I knew everything going on either. But I can guarantee that I know more than Vendictos does.
I guess you didn't read what I posted about Marix's "Skill Level Distinction" because if you had, you would have understood why Fien put that he mastered three forms.
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Lord Aequitas
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I did read it. Because I answered.
| Grand Mage Aequitas wrote: | | An apprentice, which is what he is, would not have 3 lightsaber forms Mastered. |
Taking into account his age, his length of time here ICly and the forms themselves, it's not canonly possible on this site for him to have Mastered 3 forms.
I would yield to Mastered 1 form.
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Darth Thrax
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Yes, but he thought that "Mastered", based on Marix's level system, was lower than others.
I personally think that it should go like this:
Mastered
Expert
Elite
Proficient
So, speaking for Fien, what he meant to put was that he was "Elite" in three forms, not a master.
I hope that makes sense to everyone.
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Grand Inquisitor Prognie
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You generally master one skill before you open yourself up to another. And as an apprentice, you probably (and I say this as more than likely) have not mastered any lightsaber form. There are rare exceptions.
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Lord Aequitas
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The combat list adheres to the one that, for example, is used in the Supreme Commander's profile.
It's been accepted as canon, albeit not officially.
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Darth Thrax
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I honestly do not believe that Expert and Elite should be higher than Mastered though.
i.e. You can play the guitar expertly, but you have not mastered playing the guitar.
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Lord Aequitas
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The guitar is not comparable to a lightsaber.
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Darth Thrax
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Actually, it is very comparable to a lightsaber.
You could be an expert with the lightsaber in one form, but have not yet mastered the form.
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Lord Aequitas
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He has not Mastered the forms he said he has mastered.
The list will not be changed as everyone, bar you and fien, seems not to have a problem with it.
Fien is 20 IC, training is 7-9 years ICly on the site. During that time he'd be subjected to so many tasks, he wouldn't have time to get on the second rung of the ladder, as you stress, in so many forms.
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Darth Thrax
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First off, I never said that he would be on the "second rung of the ladder". I was only speaking on his behalf and what he thought about the skill level distinction.
And second, I will not be adjusting my level distinction. I firmly believe that "Mastered" should be the highest ranking.
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Lord Aequitas
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That's your choice, but you will find it difficult to dual anyone who will not accuse you of godmodding.
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Darth Thrax
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And why would they accuse me of godmodding? I've only mastered 4 out of the 13 forms that I've studied so far.
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Lord Aequitas
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Because you would be going off of a different mastery list to everyone else.
I admit, goddmodding may not have been the word, but it breaks continuity, thereby breaking canon of which I am the authority on the site, aside from Shadow.
What Marix uses, it is what Serratus uses, it is what Crozeus uses, among others I am sure.
I am saying it's the list to use. No other list is eligible to be used.
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Darth Thrax
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I may seem stubborn, but I still will not change the rank system that I am using. There is no way that "Expert" is higher than "Mastered" and unless I have proof, I am not changing my mind.
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Grand Inquisitor Prognie
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Thrax, call it what you will but as long as you realize where you truly fall then that's fine. You can call your lightsaber mastery by numbers but as long as it's not greater than what it should be in canon, I am not going to make a stink about word choice.
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Lord Aequitas
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You're not getting it, you have to use it or omit it from your profile.
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Darth Thrax
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| Grand Inquisitor Prognie wrote: | | Thrax, call it what you will but as long as you realize where you truly fall then that's fine. You can call your lightsaber mastery by numbers but as long as it's not greater than what it should be in canon, I am not going to make a stink about word choice. |
Exactly my point.
"Canon" Ranking System: My Ranking System:
Expert Mastered
Elite Expert
Mastered Elite
Proficient Proficient
Still, Aequitas, I would love for you to explain how you think "Expert" is higher than "Mastered". Also, why must I change my system?
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Lord Aequitas
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You'd have to change it because you have to adhere to the site canon.
As for your "Master" qualm, in the Jedi Order, was Master the highest? No, there was the Grand Master.
On this site, is Master as far as you can go? No, it is not. Master does not explicitly mean the best.
A school-teacher can be called a Master. He could teach History. However, he would be no-where near the cailbre of that of a Doctor of History, a world-reknowned Expert in the field.
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Darth Thrax
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And where in the site canon does it say that I must adhere to those rules?
I'm pretty sure that there is no Form Rank known as "Lord" because that would not sound right, and it wouldn't make sense.
And as far as the doctor goes, he could also be known as a world-reknowned MASTER in the field as well.
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Fien'Dur
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Grand Mage Aequitas:
| Quote: | | A school-teacher can be called a Master. He could teach History. However, he would be no-where near the cailbre of that of a Doctor of History, a world-reknowned Expert in the field. |
Knowledge is something completely different from skill, and i see your point. But mine point clearly overpowers yours on account of, you are referring to someones intelligence and not skill.
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Lord Aequitas
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Actually, the two are inter-twined.
To be skillful at something you have to be knowlegable at it.
And an Expert at History would be better skilled in history than that of an ordinary school master. There is more than just intelligence involved.
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Fien'Dur
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I don't know about you or anyone else but, i have never heard anyone refer to a teacher as "Master."
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Lord Aequitas
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Really?
Look it up, it's what they were all called in the 1800's-mid 1900s. Not sure about the U.S. though.
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Kindrid Nokah
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Wow, I'm gone for a week and all this happens? 
Back on topic:
1] Emperor Shadow
2] Praxeum
3] Prognie
4] Divious
5] Magisto
6] Acrimonus
7] Marix
8] Vexen
9] Tarna
10] Thrax
Honorable Mention:
1] Aequitas
2] Crozeus
3] Serratus
4] Odin
I based this on duels and other people's previous rankings. Lord Aequitas, the only reason I put Thrax ahead of you was because the forms he has trained in are all very close to being Mastered. Most of them being Expert.
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Lord Aequitas
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I do stress that my lightsaber forms are not in my profile.
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Kindrid Nokah
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But wouldn't it make more sense to put them in your profile so that people wouldn't think that you're godmodding?
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Lord Aequitas
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I don't ever dual.
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Fien'Dur
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Grand Mage Aequitas: | Quote: | Really?
Look it up, it's what they were all called in the 1800's-mid 1900s. Not sure about the U.S. though. |
I think we're in the 21st century.....but feel free to believe what you want. And here in the U.S. teachers aren't referred to as "Master", but perhaps college teachers are.
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Lord Aequitas
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I know we're in the 21st Century.
Notice the word "were".
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Kindrid Nokah
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| Grand Mage Aequitas wrote: | | I don't ever dual. |
Then why did you imply that you didn't list your forms in your profile? How are we supposed to believe that you are better than Master Thrax, other than by your word?
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Lord Aequitas
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It was in answer to this:
| Quote: | | Lord Aequitas, the only reason I put Thrax ahead of you was because the forms he has trained in are all very close to being Mastered. Most of them being Expert |
I don't list my powers, so your findings would not be accurate.
Shadow doesn't list his powers. I dare you to ask him the very same question.
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Kindrid Nokah
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These questions still remain.
| Kindrid Nokah wrote: | | Then why did you imply that you didn't list your forms in your profile? How are we supposed to believe that you are better than Master Thrax, other than by your word? |
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Lord Aequitas
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I just answered that.
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Kindrid Nokah
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No, I don't think you did. How are we supposed to know that you are better at dueling than Darth Thrax? And this does not entirely pertain to Darth Thrax, but others in general.
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Lord Aequitas
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Shadow doesn't list his powers.
How do you know he'd defeat Lord Thrax.
I already said this:
| Quote: | | Shadow doesn't list his powers. I dare you to ask him the very same question. |
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Kindrid Nokah
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| Grand Mage Aequitas wrote: | Shadow doesn't list his powers.
How do you know he'd defeat Lord Thrax.
I already said this:
| Quote: | | Shadow doesn't list his powers. I dare you to ask him the very same question. |
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I know that he would defeat Lord Thrax because it's just common sense. Shadow is the most powerful Force user at this time and I think the only person(s) that might be able to come close to beating him would be either Praxeum or maybe Prognie.
I have found no proof that you would be able to beat him because you said so yourself that you don't duel. And you don't tend to focus on lightsaber combat while Thrax does majorly, from what I've read so far. Again, that's just what I've read.
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Lord Aequitas
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Thrax is not a Lord.
I am the 4th most powerful Force user.
And just because I don't use a saber doesn't mean I am unable.
Frankly, I'm getting bored of repeating myself.
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Kindrid Nokah
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| Grand Mage Aequitas wrote: | Shadow doesn't list his powers.
How do you know he'd defeat Lord Thrax.
I already said this:
| Quote: | | Shadow doesn't list his powers. I dare you to ask him the very same question. |
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Notice how you yourself said that he was a Lord. A bit contradictory, wouldn't you agree? I'm sure others would.
Do you mind sharing with the rest of us where you got this information about you being the "4th most powerful Force user"? Or did you just make it up?
None of the Sith in our timeline is unable to use a lightsaber.
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Supreme Commander Alor
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First off, I would like to point out that this "system" was created by myself for use in my character profile, because no other system was defined. Others had their own, but I felt that a more organized and tiered system would be better for me to describe my different forms because I was a Sith Battle Master, and I knew that one could not be perfect in all forms.
It was not created by an official body, or by me as an official listing. It has merely been accepted and copied by other users, and since no authoritative body has denied it as canon, and in fact it has been accepted by the High Historian, it is what is being used.
Now to get to my thinking on the system. To master something is to merely become capable of doing something. Like mastering changing the oil in a car. I overcame the challenge and have mastered it. But that doesn't mean I am the best of the best. An expert in that field will know more than me, and if someone is considered Elite, they are the best of the best.
| Darth Thrax wrote: | | There is no way that "Expert" is higher than "Mastered" and unless I have proof, I am not changing my mind. |
Proof:
Sora Bulq and Depa Billaba were masters of Vaapad, but Mace Windu was an expert, the Elite. A Sith Master is not the highest rank, Jedi Master is not the highest rank. I can be the Master Chief, but still have an Admiral above me. I can have a Masters Degree, but still have PhD's above me. Just because you want Master to be the highest rank doesn't make it the only path, or even the right path.
You presented an argument, but twisted logic and evidence to support it because you wanted it to be right, not because it was right.
I thought my system was self explanatory, but I'll define each part:
Elite: The utmost knowledge and control over a form. There are only several Elite in one form, and fewer still that can be considered Elite in more than one form. Usually requires a history as a Sith Battle Master or a more combat oriented Order. Use is almost flawless and completely fluid.
Expert: More control and knowledge than just a master of the form. One has begun the path of perfecting their use of the form. Their use is more flowing and coordinated.
Master: One has reached the level of knowledge and control that they can confidently use the form. In no way is their control and knowledge perfect.
Proficient: One can use the form, and knows the basic stances and movements, but they have not yet been able to put them together in completely fluidity.
Learning: One is learning the form.
____________________________
The main point of contention that started this was that Fien, as an Apprentice, said he "mastered" 3 forms. While he may have been using my system, that doesn't make it right. "Master" in my system means that you have complete control over the form. You aren't the best, but you aren't still learning the basics. You can use the form and understand it. That is pushing it for an Apprentice. I myself did not Master 2 forms until I was a Sith Warrior, and my current level of form mastery and knowledge was not completely achieved until I was a Sith Battle Master.
As for Aequitas' mastery of the saber. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Did any of the Jedi know that Palpatine could use a saber or even the Force? Not until it was too late. So perhaps Aequitas is the same, and has hidden talents? Besides, in an Empire as large as ours, it would be very hard for an Apprentice or even a Master to know every Sith and their skill level.
| Grand Mage Aequitas wrote: | Really?
Look it up, it's what they were all called in the 1800's-mid 1900s. Not sure about the U.S. though. |
They were used in the US in the 1700's up through the 1930's I believe.
| Kindrid Nokah wrote: | | I have found no proof that you would be able to beat him because you said so yourself that you don't duel. |
Where is your proof that Thrax could beat Aequitas? Where is your proof that Thrax could beat Crozeus or Serratus?
| Darth Thrax wrote: | And where in the site canon does it say that I must adhere to those rules?
And as far as the doctor goes, he could also be known as a world-reknowned MASTER in the field as well. |
Aequitas is the voice of official Site Canon when Shadow is absent. So if he says that you have to, then so does Site Canon (until that council is merged).
In almost every text that I have ever read, no one has been referred to as a "Master" in a certain field. It has always been "expert" or "authority" in some field, not "master".
Hopefully that covers all major points brought up. If I missed something, its a pity.
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Lord Aequitas
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A mistake. I copy and paste so I remember what I'm replying to.
A general consensus among the Order Heads. We can see forums you can't. And if you can't see them, you're not supposed to know what's in them.
And I believe Tarna's apprentice Delores or something is unable to use a lightsaber.
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Kindrid Nokah
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Well, Lord Marix, Darth Thrax has been in a few duels here and there so I took my information from the duels. I have yet to see Lord Aequitas in a duel yet, besides maybe a training session.
Lord Aequitas, Delora is able to use a lightsaber, but Lord Tarna has asked her not to and she agreed.
And now, I will return the question to you, Supreme Commander. What makes you think Lord Aequitas could beat Darth Thrax? I have yet to recieve an answer.
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Lord Aequitas
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Read the training thread. She can levitate a saber - it is stated several times she cannot use one.
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Kindrid Nokah
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But she is CAPABLE of using one.
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Lord Aequitas
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You said able, not capable.
Going back on your statements, eh?
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Supreme Commander Alor
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| Kindrid Nokah wrote: | Well, Lord Marix, Darth Thrax has been in a few duels here and there so I took my information from the duels. I have yet to see Lord Aequitas in a duel yet, besides maybe a training session.
Lord Aequitas, Delora is able to use a lightsaber, but Lord Tarna has asked her not to and she agreed.
And now, I will return the question to you, Supreme Commander. What makes you think Lord Aequitas could beat Darth Thrax? I have yet to recieve an answer. |
The fact that he is a Sith Lord, and considered very powerful in the Force is a contending factor. But I never said that Aequitas could beat Thrax, just as I have yet to say that Thrax can beat Aequitas.
There is no proof either way. So drop it.
The lists, as pointed out before, are the opinions of several users. And have yet to be accepted as fact or canon.
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Kindrid Nokah
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Capable and able are almost the exact same in definition.
And no, I'm not going back on my statements. Delora is able, or capable, to use a lightsaber, but Lord Tarna doesn't want her using it.
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Lord Aequitas
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almost is very important there, it means there is a difference.
And from what I read Delores doesn't want to use one either.
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Supreme Commander Alor
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You are arguing about whether or not someone is capable of using a lightsaber. How pitiful is that? Why don't you just ask her, Kindrid?
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Kindrid Nokah
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| Grand Mage Aequitas wrote: | almost is very important there, it means there is a difference.
And from what I read Delores doesn't want to use one either. |
Even if she doesn't want to use one does not negate the fact that she is capable of using one. Is it seriously that hard for you to understand?
Marix, I don't find it pitiful at all. Aequitas is the one that brought her into the conversation. As I stated above, she is capable of using one, but chose not to.
| Merriam-Webster Dictionary wrote: | Capable: Having attributes (as physical or mental power) required for performance or accomplishment. <is capable of intense concentration>
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| Merriam-Webster Dictionary wrote: | Able: Having sufficient power, skill, or resources to accomplish an object. Susceptible to action or treatment < marked by intelligence, knowledge, skill, or competence>
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I hope that helps, Aequitas.
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Lord Aequitas
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It does, it shows a difference.
You're not very good at this, are you.
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Supreme Commander Alor
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He brought her into the discussion because you said
| Quote: | | None of the Sith in our timeline is unable to use a lightsaber. |
He was merely proving you wrong.
It is pitiful because you've spent about 6 posts just arguing about it. If you were any good, you'd get her to back you up by the 2nd post.
| Quote: | | Able is followed by an infinitive. If someone is able to do something, they can do it and it is not unusual or surprising if they do it: 'The doctor said that after a few years I'd be able to get out of bed'. 'Will you be able to play on Saturday?' |
| Quote: | | Capable is followed by the preposition of and a gerund/participle. If someone is capable of (doing) something, they do not usually do it, but it is possible for them to do it if they want to: 'I'm sure he's quite capable of getting here on time, but he can't be bothered'. 'The power station is capable of generating enough electricity for the whole region' |
There is a difference.
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Kindrid Nokah
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Aequitas, maybe if you weren't so blinded by stubbornness, you would actually understand what I'm trying to convey.
Marix, there might be a difference, but they both correspond directly to Delora.
Delora is both capable and able to use a lightsaber, but chooses not to, as I've stated several, several times before.
You obviously don't understand what I'm telling you, but I am right.
Oh and also, you said that if I "was any good, I'd get her to back me up by the second post." This is not entirely true. I've brought up many examples that are in my favor so I don't need to have her back me up. You might however.
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Lord Aequitas
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You pick up a guitar for the first time ever, are you able to play it?
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Kindrid Nokah
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Yes, I would be able to play it. I wouldn't be able to play it very well, but I am still able to play it nonetheless.
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Lord Aequitas
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I don't think I made myself clear, you've never seen a guitar before in your life. How would you know how to play it?
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Supreme Commander Alor
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| Kindrid Nokah wrote: | Aequitas, maybe if you weren't so blinded by stubbornness, you would actually understand what I'm trying to convey.
Marix, there might be a difference, but they both correspond directly to Delora.
Delora is both capable and able to use a lightsaber, but chooses not to, as I've stated several, several times before.
You obviously don't understand what I'm telling you, but I am right.
Oh and also, you said that if I "was any good, I'd get her to back me up by the second post." This is not entirely true. I've brought up many examples that are in my favor so I don't need to have her back me up. You might however. |
Kindrid, you yourself are blinded by stubbornness.
They do not apply to her. In fact you have no right to say anything about that character. If Delora decides that her character is incapable or unable to use a lightsaber, that is her choice, not yours. That is why I said you should have brought her into the conversation.
Just because you twist information to suit your view, doesn't make your view the correct one.
You are obviously incapable of comprehending when you are losing an argument or when it is not in your best interest to drop the topic, especially when an Admin suggests dropping the topic. "But I am right."
One can never have too much evidence. You haven't brought up any examples that would stand up on their own if you didn't twist them to fit your purpose. I might.
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Kindrid Nokah
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By that statement, you're assuming that Delora has never seen a lightsaber before. This, of course, is not true.
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Supreme Commander Alor
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You're assuming that Delora has used one before. She might have seen one, but that doesn't mean she has used one.
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Kindrid Nokah
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Actually, no, I am not. I know very well that she hasn't used one. That's what this whole discussion is about.
I'm going to say this very clearly, okay? Delora obviously has not used a lightsaber before, but she is both able and capable of using one. Does that make sense?
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Delora Tempest
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I assure you Lord Aequitas, I have indeed seen a lightsaber. However, Kindrid Nokah, I am unable to use one. And by your logic, that also means I am incapable; you say the two are the same.
Lord Marix just e-mailed me to tell me of this discussion. I am quite ashamed that I have caused a high ranking Lord to lower himself to the level in which he resolves to petty arguments. I understand this is Out Of Character, but a Lord is supposed to be humble.
However, Lord Aequitas, I do forgive you as you were defending my position on lightsabers. Mr Nokah, no meaning to cause any offence but you do not have any control over my character, Delora Tempest. It is not your decision to clarify if she is able or unable, capable or incapable to use a lightsaber of any sort.
Lord Marix, I thank you for alerting me to this situation. I shall return to the site when Lord Tarna replied to my training thread.
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Lord Aequitas
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| Delora Tempest wrote: | | I am quite ashamed that I have caused a high ranking Lord to lower himself to the level in which he resolves to petty arguments. I understand this is Out Of Character, but a Lord is supposed to be humble. |
Umm.....should I be insulted or not? 
Oh well, you forgave me!! 
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Supreme Commander Alor
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Matter is closed.
Any more discussion is to be on Lightsaber Combat Ranks, and in a civil manner.
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Kindrid Nokah
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Edit: I was ninja posted. I'm just going to drop this subject right now. No, not because Marix or Aequitas have told told me to. I'm dropping it because I choose to.
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Supreme Commander Alor
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Wise choice.
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Kindrid Nokah
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I didn't do it because of you. I hope you understand that part very clearly.
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Supreme Commander Alor
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You don't have a choice on the matter. I said it was closed, therefore it is closed. Regardless of your own feelings on why you stopped, it is stopped.
Now either post on the topic at hand, or leave this thread alone. End of discussion.
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Fien'Dur
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Delora Tempest wrote: | Quote: | | I am unable to use one. |
How are you unable to use a lightsaber? That makes literally no sense. What, you don't know how to put it in your hands and press the button which ignites the blade? You are plenty capable of using a lightsaber. It's a choice that separates the meaning, "Unable", from "Choose not to."
And both Kindrid Nokah and Darth Thrax have excellent points. I guess our menings differ from countries. 
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High Mage Serratus
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For the love all that we hold dear, Fien, I think she damn wells her character far, far better than you. Just because she turns on a lightsaber doesn't mean she can use it. I could turn on a Gameboy but not know how to use it. Delora has stated that she cannot wield a lightsaber and I would consider her knowledge of her own character to be far more infallible than yours.
There is far more to lightsaber combat than turning on a lightsaber and giving it a swing. I dare you to challenge Aequitas to a duel and turn on your lightsaber and give it a swing. Your coffin would be full of matchboxes, each containing a tiny piece of what was left of you.
Now Marix has ended the discussion but in case you're not quite clear on it, Marix is a Lord and Admin and I'm a Mod, so we're both telling you that you either discuss the matter of Lightsaber Combat Ranks or you don't discuss anything.
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Venedictos Appo
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| Darth Thrax wrote: | | Vendictos needs to keep quiet because he has "apparently" only been here for maybe a month and doesn't know everything that is going on here. |
I believe if you check my message, none of the information I gave was incorrect. Marix does not have the power to set down the official skill level distinctions. Also, I don't need to keep quiet, I can say whatever I damn well please, wherever I damn well please. There'll be repurcussions, sure, but there sure as hell won't be any from you, Thrax.
For the record, I never said that I knew everything that is going on here but I've a fair idea from reading the forums that are available to an apprentice. Unlike most people, I familiarised myself with the site by actually reading threads, reading announcements. In fact, I didn't even apply until I'd read everything in the Sith Council category. So don't make an assumption about what I do or do not know.
As the old movie quote goes, when you make an assumption, you make an ass out of u and mption.
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Supreme Commander Alor
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What part of that conversation was ended are people not getting. I was going to leave this thread open for continued discussion of a lightsaber ranking system, in a civil manner, if anyone had any ideas or comments. But since that seems to not be the case, it will now be locked.
Fien and Venedictos: You completely ignored and disobeyed my order to not discuss this. That is the last time that happens. I just happen to be in a good mood right now, and since the both of you are "new" here, you get a "freebie". Next time, I will not be so lenient, and I will make that point clear to whoever is presiding over the matter as well.
This thread is locked unless someone PM's me asking for it to be reopened because they want to carry out a civil discussion on the matter. Of course, any such discussion will not have any definite impact upon any such system that may or may not already be or be put into place.
LOCKED
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