Emperor Shadow
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Spill Your Guts About NJOWhich did you love? Hate? Who do you wish died? Didn't die? Etc.
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Darth Acheron
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I had hoped Anakin Solo and Chewie hadn't died.  .
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Emperor Shadow
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I really liked Anakin. I wish Shesh didn't die either, she was awesome.
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Lord Scourge
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I wished the Yuuzhon Vong could have died before they were introduced...
I didn't have a problems with the deaths they did have - I thought the Star Wars saga had gone way too long without any deaths of main characters - I mean, between Obi-Wan in the first movie and Chewie in NJO, the most important good guy to die was.... Crix Madine, right?
-Scourge
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Emperor Shadow
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I would say Ackbar.
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Lord Scourge
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Didn't Chewie die before Ackbar?
-Scourge
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Darth Acheron
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Yep.
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Emperor Shadow
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Chewbacca died in Vector Prime... Ackbar in Unifying Force.
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Lord Scourge
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Right, so I think the most important good guy to die between Obi-Wan (0 BBY) and Chewie (25 BBY) is General Madine... that's quite a while for none of the main heroes to die.
-Scourge
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Emperor Shadow
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Oh most ceartinly between. He was the first character from the movies to die as well! Bonus points if you know which book it was in.
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Lord Scourge
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Darksaber.
-Scourge
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Emperor Shadow
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*Sparks and trumpets erupt as Shadow presents Gold Medal to Scourge in a fanfare of sparkling light shows.*
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Lord Scourge
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Not all that impressive, considering I was bringing up his death in the first place...
-Scourge
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Emperor Shadow
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Yeah, I know. I'm just insanely insane.
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Darth Acheron
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Lady Actir
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What's wrong about the Yuuzhan Vong? I thought it was an original idea, although I admit it seemed as if they could not think of anything else...
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Lord Scourge
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Well, let's see.... they had long since established the problems of extra-galactic travel, and yet made them an extra-galactic invader, when there was no need - the Star Wars galaxy has large portions of unexplored space, as the hyperspace lanes produce thin strips of explored space with hundreds of lightyears in between. The Black Fleet storyline may not have been particularly well-written, but at least it had that lovely story hook, the fact that at any time, a newly-discovered hyperspace lane could open up into a previously unexplored area, which could be filled with damn-near anything, given the wonderfully weird nature of the Star Wars stories.
Speaking of the Yevetha, I also have the annoyance that when describing the basic creepiness and anti-human sentiment of the Yuuzhon Vong, only a few years after the Black Fleet Crisis, I kept feeling, "Didn't they just meet these guys last week?"
But most importantly, the Yuuzhon Vong do not exist in the Force. This does not feel like something fresh and original to me, this feels like the last grasp of a desperate publisher who forgot to let the writers create the stories. Everything in Star Wars exists in the Force, "even the trees, the rocks". A standard stupid cliché in serial writing (usually dredged up to bring life into a dying series, incidentally) is to create a villain who has strengths corresponding to the hero's weaknesses, and immune to the hero's strengths. When you see this in any story, you know the result is to give the hero a contrived way to win anyhow, even when there's no good reason why they would win.
By introducing an extra-galactic invading species that cannot be affected in any way by the Force (except picking up a rock and throwing it at them), but perfectly capable of killing Jedi without benefit of the Force... it just felt like the editors at Del Rey sat down and said, "well we're out of ideas, so let's take an idea so bad Barbara Hambly would hesitate to touch it, and make the longest series in Star Wars history out of it!"
Maybe it's just me, but the sooner they bring back the Sith as villains and try to forget that the Yuuzhon Vong were ever introduced, the better the Star Wars EU will be for it.
When I finally run the D20 game I've been writing (one that has to be regular in-person RPG, not online), I may end up with a side plot in which the characters accidentlly undermine the Yuuzhon Vong invasion ten years before it happens, and prevent the entire storyline from happening.
All right, believe it or not, I don't mean to ruin anyone else's enjoyment of the NJO series, but I may as well just get it out of my system - go ahead and delve into how and why you love it, enjoy talking about it - but that's why I don't like the concept underlying the whole thing.
-Scourge
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Lady Actir
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I see your point, and as I said, as I read through the whole series, I also felt it was like they couldn't think of anything better. However, I think it could have been much worse than it was.
Putting aside the fact that they're Yuuzhan Vong, I think some of the characters were well developed (Nom Anor, of course, Vua Rapuung, Nen Yim, and Riina-Tahiri, for example), and it was something different - when I started to read the NJO I hadn't read any other EU book (I had read many Star Wars pages, but not books or comics), so if it had been about Sith, I probably would have thought "What, again?! Can't they imagine any other enemy?"
I think the ending of the whole series was a bit rushed, though... I would have liked a more elaborated "defeat" or whatever you want to call it.
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Emperor Shadow
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Yeah... there were ceartin elements you could tell they were leaving for "Legacy."
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Darth Acheron
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Like?
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Lady Actir
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That's Spoilers from Legacy!! Please, open another thread for that. I'm still waiting for my Dark Nest books (I have the second one but not the first or the third! ).
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Darth Acheron
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Oops, sorry.  Star wars 5 just started on tv, so bye!
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Darth Acrimonus
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I'm not really spilling my guts here, but I guess I'm asking someone else to do so, so it's still appropriate.
Did the Yuuzhan Vong completely exterminate the Hutts as a species, or simply destroy their resources and send them fleeing into the Outer Rim?
I've only read bits and peices of the NJO (currently reading Ylseia which mentions it) and as such haven't read the actual account of what the Vong did to them, only an observation afterward from Sal-Solo's point of view.
Thanks in advance to any and all who can clear this up.
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Emperor Shadow
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My understanding was that the Hutts are nomads now.
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Lord Scourge
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That one threw a monkey wrench into my game this Sunday (the Search for a Miraluka roleplay), when it was discovered the Vong did their nasty to Nal Hutta and Nar Shaddaa. Since I'm unwilling to believe internet rumors unless they provide a reference, it took a while to confirm that one, because apparently the destruction happened between books, and was only referred in Balance Point.
Since this was three years before the Vong were beaten back in Unifying Force, it's hard to say where this currently stands. They may have been overwhelmingly Vong-formed and requiring major reconstruction, to the point where they may as well build on a new world. Or the changes may have been superficial and just designed to make life difficult for the Hutts.
Even worse, I don't know if there's even a hint of how extensive their reforming was on Nar Shaddaa - I'm really hoping that can go back to the beautiful little cesspit of iniquity it was before...
-Scourge
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Emperor Shadow
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A ton of stuff happens between.
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Darth Acrimonus
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Thanks (again, I guess) to both Shadow and Scourge, your comments have cleared this issue up considerably.
I would assume, given the power of the Hutt cartels before the Vong invasion, that if they did survive they'd be able to pull the resources together to reclaim and repair their territory. My main concern was that they were now to be considered 'extinct'...
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Darth Acheron
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Yeah, I'm annoyed with the vong, because they wiped out so many planets great histories.
Coruscant and Nal Hutta being great examples, plus Ithor...
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Emperor Shadow
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They'll bounce back, I'm sure. Ithor was going to be resolved in Dark Nest, but was sacraficed in favor of something else.
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Darth Acheron
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Grr. Stupid other things (Trying hard to avoid spoilers!)
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Emperor Shadow
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Lord Legacy
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chewieI didnt want Chewie to die he is such a good character, but if i was going to go having a moon run into me its a pretty cool way to go, the image of him bloody and beaten with a fist raised and roaring at the oncoming moon was pretty wicked
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High Commander Vexen
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wow shadow I thought you would hate NJO after what happened in it
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Darth Acheron
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Its actually cooler then that, Legacy.
He had both arms raised, as if he himself, with brute forcve, could stop the moon from hitting the planet. I'm sure there are some awesome pictures of that moment around, .
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High Commander Vexen
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yeah in the NEC it has a picture
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Emperor Shadow
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If you mean Vergere, that is sad, but I really liked it over-all.
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High Commander Vexen
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yeah I did
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Emperor Shadow
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Yeah. I like Walter Jon Williams though, so I won't destroy him like I would anyone else for doing what he did to Vergere.
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Lord Scourge
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All our favorite characters die eventually, the question is a matter of how the writer handles it. The only thing that had been annoying me about Quinlan Vos' death in the comic version of ROTJ was that it was a half-page snippet as part of Order 66, not a full story written by Ostrander. Now Ostrander has written the story of what happened to Quinlan Vos at the Battle of Kashyyyk, when Order 66 hit, and what he did afterwards - I would have been fine if the character died then, and I expect that he still dies before *too* long, but it'll be great just as long as the story is done right.
-Scourge
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Emperor Shadow
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I agree, and all puns aside, it's all in the execution of it.
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Lord Scourge
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So you're saying it didn't involve Jacen yelling, "Oh my god, they killed Vergere! You bastards!" 
-Scourge
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Emperor Shadow
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I'm simply saying I'm glad something like that didn't happen. 
Williams did a good job at killing her off in my opinion.
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Darth Acheron
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Still, Anakin Solo's death, you've got to admit, is such a cliche it was horrendous.
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Emperor Shadow
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I liked it.
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Darth Acheron
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Yet it was like so many others. Struck down in batle but valiantly fighting on.
They found unique deaths for Vergere and Chewie, why not the other main good character to die in the series?
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Trivas
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Well, if they came up with something extreme, then readers would just get bored with the extremity. By having him killed off like anyone else, it shows that the characters are still human and vulnerable. My only disappointment with Anakin's death was that it was so BLATANT in the book. He should have just been running around fighting then all of a sudden, gotten stabbed in the heart and died after a minute or two. Having him wounded (which as soon as that happened, I knew he was dead), then having him fight and get more wounded, then having him fight some more and killing a whole bunch of Vong before finally dying was just a little too much.
Also, why can't a major character have been killed off in a starfighter battle? How many major characters have died in any of the countless starfighter battles in SW? Look at the X-Wing series, there are a few characters that died, but most of them were minor characters. The whole idea of having glorious deaths is only found in the movies and books. They just need to have some heros die like everyone else.
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Emperor Shadow
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I agree that people must die in space from now on.
Another thing I dislike about Anakin's death is that when Leia gets the Force vibration thing, Han calls her "Princess." He only calls her that when he wants to be pissy.
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Darth Acrimonus
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| Quote: | | The whole idea of having glorious deaths is only found in the movies and books. They just need to have some heros die like everyone else. |
If memory serves correctly, Admiral Akbar died peacefully of natural causes. So there are a few 'normal' deaths scattered throughout.
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Trivas
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True, but he was a very minor character at that time, like Winter. They may have been big in the past, but they faded long ago. Same with Mon Mothma.
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