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Wrong?

Yes  52%  [ 13 ] No  48%  [ 12 ]

Total Votes : 25

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Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:16 pm
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Darth Thrax Sith Marauder Joined: 10 Mar 2007 Posts: 2431 Location: In front of a computer obviously. I apologize for the outburst, but I've just been annoyed recently. If it pleases anyone at all, I'll agree to stay out of the debate section for awhile. _________________

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:20 pm
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Lord Aequitas Sith Lord Second Degree Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 5702 Location: Prancing through the fields like a prancing...prancer. No-one wants you to do that, just keep cool mate _________________ Emperor Shadow wrote: Taking creepiness to a new level since 80something ABY.

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:28 pm
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High Prophet Crozeus Sith Priest Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 4498 Location: I am yu, and he is mi. Ah Dean, it's a shame you weren't on Rebels for the 100+ page debate on abortion that made poor Lin cry. I miss your brutal logic. _________________

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:32 pm
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High Mage Serratus Sith Marauder Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 1578 Location: Eating a bagel (LIKE A BOSS) In debating terms, it's both my greatest strength and flaw. It can be persuasive and undeconstructible but equally does not express a great understanding of the specifics of the topic, instead using a general system of logic to defeat any number. It has both won and lost me IRL debates. I've lost due to sabotage too ¬-¬ _________________ If you see dreadlocks and a staff coming towards you very rapidly, you're in trouble.

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:43 am
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Yodafueva Jedi Joined: 22 Jan 2006 Posts: 241 Location: Superunknown Grand Mage Aequitas wrote: I can say it because it is true. It's unethical to kill, period. However, I am a supporter of pre-20 week abortion. In my opinion, before that time, it is not a child and as such, the woman is just removing an unwanted foreign body, not killing. And what if the woman was raped? Are you saying she should have been smarter then? Pregnancy as a result of rape is extremely rare. Also, Vexen, that point is rather silly. I'm okay with people doing what they will with their own bodies, but it becomes a problem if their self-destruction affects someone else. Almost all modern day abortions are done when the woman decides she, for whatever reason, doesn't want to deal with a child or go through the pain of pregnancy. I find that to be disgustingly irresponsible. These women willfully engaged in sexual behavior, knowing that the risk of pregnancy was there. I don't believe in killing someone for trivial reasons. _________________

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:47 am
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Lord Aequitas Sith Lord Second Degree Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 5702 Location: Prancing through the fields like a prancing...prancer. Yodafueva wrote: Almost all modern day abortions are done when the woman decides she, for whatever reason, doesn't want to deal with a child or go through the pain of pregnancy. I find that to be disgustingly irresponsible. These women willfully engaged in sexual behavior, knowing that the risk of pregnancy was there. I don't believe in killing someone for trivial reasons. I liken this to the common case of a child wanting to go out playing in the rain. He does so, knowing there is a risk of catching a cold. When he catches the cold, he gets rid of it by killing it. Now, the cold virus is a living thing, is it not. So you would you condem this child for wanting to remove an unwanted drain on his body, making him tired and exhausted and sick? Like the foreign body in a woman's womb. _________________ Emperor Shadow wrote: Taking creepiness to a new level since 80something ABY.

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:59 am
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High Commander Vexen Sith Lord Second Degree Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 5107 Location: Building a Communist fighting robot I can almost guarantee he would come back and say "A cold virus isn't human" _________________

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:02 am
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Lord Aequitas Sith Lord Second Degree Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 5702 Location: Prancing through the fields like a prancing...prancer. And I am of the opinion that before 20 weeks, the body in a woman's womb is not human either. _________________ Emperor Shadow wrote: Taking creepiness to a new level since 80something ABY.

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:10 am
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Sovereign Defender Tarna Dark Lord of the Sith Joined: 27 Jun 2006 Posts: 2754 Location: Kuat or Bastion Grand Mage Aequitas wrote: And I am of the opinion that before 20 weeks, the body in a woman's womb is not human either. Before twenty weeks, it's a few cells.  Not all that different in size and scope than said virus. _________________

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:29 am
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Lucius Black Sith Apprentice Joined: 06 Jun 2009 Posts: 193 Location: The Asylum The sole purpose of a virus is to destroy cells and cause harm. Comparing a harmless baby to a virus is in my opinion sick and inhumane. The only comparison is that both are made up of a small amount of cells. I might as well compare you to a deer. If that's the case, hunters should have the same right to blow your head off as they would a deer. _________________ ~ Jacob's Blog of Goodness: Updated 8/2 ~ Flash Game Mania

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:31 pm
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High Mage Serratus Sith Marauder Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 1578 Location: Eating a bagel (LIKE A BOSS) Your knowledge of viruses is therefore lacking, as viruses do not destroy cells, they convert them and viruses only cause harm in so far as they, in a manner of speaking, eat human cells and any symptoms you may experience of a virus are your body's way of flushing the virus out, e.g. a high temperature, runny nose, sleepiness. A virus assimilating human cells is no different than a human eating the flesh of a deer. Viruses only cause harm in so far as they, in a manner of speaking, eat human cells and any symptoms you may experience of a virus are your body's way of flushing the virus out, e.g. a high temperature, runny nose, sleepiness. Speaking of deer, they are incomparable to humans, as they lack the same level of spacial reasoning and logical thought as humans. _________________ If you see dreadlocks and a staff coming towards you very rapidly, you're in trouble.

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:32 pm
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Lucius Black Sith Apprentice Joined: 06 Jun 2009 Posts: 193 Location: The Asylum High Mage Serratus wrote: Your knowledge of viruses is therefore lacking, as viruses do not destroy cells, they convert them and viruses only cause harm in so far as they, in a manner of speaking, eat human cells and any symptoms you may experience of a virus are your body's way of flushing the virus out, e.g. a high temperature, runny nose, sleepiness. A virus assimilating human cells is no different than a human eating the flesh of a deer. Viruses only cause harm in so far as they, in a manner of speaking, eat human cells and any symptoms you may experience of a virus are your body's way of flushing the virus out, e.g. a high temperature, runny nose, sleepiness. Speaking of deer, they are incomparable to humans, as they lack the same level of spacial reasoning and logical thought as humans. But you compare viruses to human embryos? Wow. The two are similar in one way. Since when is eating cells of humans not a bad thing? _________________ ~ Jacob's Blog of Goodness: Updated 8/2 ~ Flash Game Mania

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:54 pm
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Yodafueva Jedi Joined: 22 Jan 2006 Posts: 241 Location: Superunknown Grand Mage Aequitas wrote: Yodafueva wrote: Almost all modern day abortions are done when the woman decides she, for whatever reason, doesn't want to deal with a child or go through the pain of pregnancy. I find that to be disgustingly irresponsible. These women willfully engaged in sexual behavior, knowing that the risk of pregnancy was there. I don't believe in killing someone for trivial reasons. I liken this to the common case of a child wanting to go out playing in the rain. He does so, knowing there is a risk of catching a cold. When he catches the cold, he gets rid of it by killing it. Now, the cold virus is a living thing, is it not. So you would you condem this child for wanting to remove an unwanted drain on his body, making him tired and exhausted and sick? Like the foreign body in a woman's womb. Except that a woman's body doesn't try to attack the baby as it would a virus. During pregnancy, a woman's body will go through changes to provide the child with the necessary nutrients to live. Thus debunking your theory that a developing child is an enemy combatant in unwelcome territory like a virus. _________________

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:07 am
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Sovereign Defender Tarna Dark Lord of the Sith Joined: 27 Jun 2006 Posts: 2754 Location: Kuat or Bastion Yodafueva wrote: Grand Mage Aequitas wrote: Yodafueva wrote: Almost all modern day abortions are done when the woman decides she, for whatever reason, doesn't want to deal with a child or go through the pain of pregnancy. I find that to be disgustingly irresponsible. These women willfully engaged in sexual behavior, knowing that the risk of pregnancy was there. I don't believe in killing someone for trivial reasons. I liken this to the common case of a child wanting to go out playing in the rain. He does so, knowing there is a risk of catching a cold. When he catches the cold, he gets rid of it by killing it. Now, the cold virus is a living thing, is it not. So you would you condem this child for wanting to remove an unwanted drain on his body, making him tired and exhausted and sick? Like the foreign body in a woman's womb. Except that a woman's body doesn't try to attack the baby as it would a virus. During pregnancy, a woman's body will go through changes to provide the child with the necessary nutrients to live. Thus debunking your theory that a developing child is an enemy combatant in unwelcome territory like a virus. I don't think the term "enemy combatant" should be used about an embryo, regardless of your stance on this matter.   I myself don't like abortion and hope that (in the unlikely event the situation should arise in my life) the girl I impregnated would not get an abortion.  However, not everyone is me and has different circumstances, which is why (politically speaking) I am pro-choice. _________________

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:53 am
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High Mage Serratus Sith Marauder Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 1578 Location: Eating a bagel (LIKE A BOSS) Lucius Black wrote: High Mage Serratus wrote: Your knowledge of viruses is therefore lacking, as viruses do not destroy cells, they convert them and viruses only cause harm in so far as they, in a manner of speaking, eat human cells and any symptoms you may experience of a virus are your body's way of flushing the virus out, e.g. a high temperature, runny nose, sleepiness. A virus assimilating human cells is no different than a human eating the flesh of a deer. Viruses only cause harm in so far as they, in a manner of speaking, eat human cells and any symptoms you may experience of a virus are your body's way of flushing the virus out, e.g. a high temperature, runny nose, sleepiness. Speaking of deer, they are incomparable to humans, as they lack the same level of spacial reasoning and logical thought as humans. But you compare viruses to human embryos? Wow. The two are similar in one way. Since when is eating cells of humans not a bad thing? A virus and an embryo are both micro-organisms which take their sustenance from the human body. As opposed to deers and humans which are vastly different, in fact, a fully-grown deer and a fully-grown adult are rather incomparable. Everything from the skeletal structure to the reproductive system is completely different save for those similarities common in all mammals. And while we may view at as a bad thing, it is not an immoral thing, which is much different. Viruses eat other things, just as we do, while we may do our best to begrudge it its meal, we have no place to begrudge its attempts to kill us. Viruses are no more evil than any other living thing which tries to eat a human. _________________ If you see dreadlocks and a staff coming towards you very rapidly, you're in trouble.

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:13 pm
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Lucius Black Sith Apprentice Joined: 06 Jun 2009 Posts: 193 Location: The Asylum Quote: A virus and an embryo are both micro-organisms which take their sustenance from the human body. Your body tries to fight off viruses. I'm pretty sure it's the opposite with unborn babies. Quote: As opposed to deers and humans which are vastly different, in fact, a fully-grown deer and a fully-grown adult are rather incomparable. Everything from the skeletal structure to the reproductive system is completely different save for those similarities common in all mammals. Yet you still compare a virus to an embryo. Need I say more? Quote: And while we may view at as a bad thing, it is not an immoral thing, which is much different. Viruses eat other things, just as we do, while we may do our best to begrudge it its meal, we have no place to begrudge its attempts to kill us. Viruses are no more evil than any other living thing which tries to eat a human. So we sit back and let them eat us? _________________ ~ Jacob's Blog of Goodness: Updated 8/2 ~ Flash Game Mania

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:44 pm
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High Prophet Crozeus Sith Priest Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 4498 Location: I am yu, and he is mi. Everywhere Yoda goes, that gif follows. _________________

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:06 pm
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High Mage Serratus Sith Marauder Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 1578 Location: Eating a bagel (LIKE A BOSS) Lucius Black wrote: Quote: A virus and an embryo are both micro-organisms which take their sustenance from the human body. Your body tries to fight off viruses. I'm pretty sure it's the opposite with unborn babies. The body is conditioned to accept embryos, it's natural for us to carry them. However, that doesn't mean it is unnatural for us to dispose. Lucius Black wrote: Quote: As opposed to deers and humans which are vastly different, in fact, a fully-grown deer and a fully-grown adult are rather incomparable. Everything from the skeletal structure to the reproductive system is completely different save for those similarities common in all mammals. Yet you still compare a virus to an embryo. Need I say more? I don't see the logic. You tried to compare Aequitas to a deer because he compared a virus to an embryo. I stated that embryos and viruses are not that different and that deer and humans are vastly different. How does that do anything against my argument? Lucius Black wrote: Quote: And while we may view at as a bad thing, it is not an immoral thing, which is much different. Viruses eat other things, just as we do, while we may do our best to begrudge it its meal, we have no place to begrudge its attempts to kill us. Viruses are no more evil than any other living thing which tries to eat a human. So we sit back and let them eat us? Actually, no, that's the opposite of what I said. Let me take out the big boy words; Viruses are "bad" but not "wrong". Viruses eat things and humans eat things. We can kill viruses but we can't say that it's evil for us attacking us. _________________ If you see dreadlocks and a staff coming towards you very rapidly, you're in trouble.

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:00 pm
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High Prophet Crozeus Sith Priest Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 4498 Location: I am yu, and he is mi. I'm bored so I will post my views I honestly don't care about the technicalities. If it's murder or not, it doesn't matter - it's just a medical procedure. If a woman becomes pregnant and she doesn't want the baby (or becoming pregnant wasn't her choice) then she has every right to have an abortion. Forcing her to have a baby she doesn't want, especially if either of them is threatened, is just barbaric. _________________

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:55 am
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High Mage Serratus Sith Marauder Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 1578 Location: Eating a bagel (LIKE A BOSS) I agree. Nothing, no government, no person, no organisation, has the right to do anything or force anyone to do anything to a person's body and that simple fact nullifies all arguments. Whatever the morality of the actual act of aborting the foetus, it is completely immoral to force someone not to have one. _________________ If you see dreadlocks and a staff coming towards you very rapidly, you're in trouble.

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:02 am
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Lucius Black Sith Apprentice Joined: 06 Jun 2009 Posts: 193 Location: The Asylum High Mage Serratus wrote: I agree. Nothing, no government, no person, no organisation, has the right to do anything or force anyone to do anything to a person's body and that simple fact nullifies all arguments. So that simple fact nullifies 20 years of arguing? I highly doubt it. If the mother chooses to have sex (protected or unprotected), she chooses to risk becoming pregnant. No government made that choice for her. Rape and when the mother's life are in danger are the only times I feel abortion is acceptable. Quote: Whatever the morality of the actual act of aborting the foetus, it is completely immoral to force someone not to have one. So it would be immoral to tell somebody he isn't allowed to go kill people? _________________ ~ Jacob's Blog of Goodness: Updated 8/2 ~ Flash Game Mania

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:56 pm
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High Mage Serratus Sith Marauder Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 1578 Location: Eating a bagel (LIKE A BOSS) Lucius Black wrote: High Mage Serratus wrote: I agree. Nothing, no government, no person, no organisation, has the right to do anything or force anyone to do anything to a person's body and that simple fact nullifies all arguments. So that simple fact nullifies 20 years of arguing? I highly doubt it. If the mother chooses to have sex (protected or unprotected), she chooses to risk becoming pregnant. No government made that choice for her. Rape and when the mother's life are in danger are the only times I feel abortion is acceptable. Yes, I'm afraid it does. The fact of the matter is that you can not force her to carry a foetus. She chose to have sex and assuming she is over 21/20/19/18/17/16/15 (depending on the country in question), she has the right to have sex. There is no annotation to the right to consent to have sexual intercourse that says "as long as she doesn't abort a baby she conceives." She has the right to have or not to have sex and the right to have or not to have a child and there is no point in any constitution or bill of rights or what have you where those two rights overlap. Lucius Black wrote: Quote: Whatever the morality of the actual act of aborting the foetus, it is completely immoral to force someone not to have one. So it would be immoral to tell somebody he isn't allowed to go kill people? Of course not, don't be foolish. In the case of an abortion, the woman is only doing something to their own body, in the case of somebody murdering another sentient person, they are doing something to another person's body, which, as I have stated above, they have no right to do. _________________ If you see dreadlocks and a staff coming towards you very rapidly, you're in trouble.

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:32 pm
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Lucius Black Sith Apprentice Joined: 06 Jun 2009 Posts: 193 Location: The Asylum Quote: Yes, I'm afraid it does. The fact of the matter is that you can not force her to carry a foetus. She chose to have sex and assuming she is over 21/20/19/18/17/16/15 (depending on the country in question), she has the right to have sex. There is no annotation to the right to consent to have sexual intercourse that says "as long as she doesn't abort a baby she conceives." She has the right to have or not to have sex and the right to have or not to have a child and there is no point in any constitution or bill of rights or what have you where those two rights overlap. I wouldn't bring the Constitution into this because quite frankly, I don't believe a lot of what's in there. I'm not arguing about current law. I'm arguing about common sense. She chose to have sex. She chose pregnancy. No need to destroy an innocent life in the name of shame/laziness. Arguing that it isn't life is stupid. A baby in the womb 5 minutes before birth isn't dead. It's virtually the same as a born baby, just depending on it's mother for life, as a born baby also would. Quote: Of course not, don't be foolish. In the case of an abortion, the woman is only doing something to their own body, The annoys the living daylights out of me. Somebody seems to say it every time I debate abortion. She's not just doing something to her body. She's doing it to the child's body. I'm getting sick of that. Quote: ....in the case of somebody murdering another sentient person, they are doing something to another person's body, which, as I have stated above, they have no right to do. Again, getting sick of this. _________________ ~ Jacob's Blog of Goodness: Updated 8/2 ~ Flash Game Mania

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:26 pm
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High Mage Serratus Sith Marauder Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 1578 Location: Eating a bagel (LIKE A BOSS) Lucius Black wrote: Quote: Yes, I'm afraid it does. The fact of the matter is that you can not force her to carry a foetus. She chose to have sex and assuming she is over 21/20/19/18/17/16/15 (depending on the country in question), she has the right to have sex. There is no annotation to the right to consent to have sexual intercourse that says "as long as she doesn't abort a baby she conceives." She has the right to have or not to have sex and the right to have or not to have a child and there is no point in any constitution or bill of rights or what have you where those two rights overlap. I wouldn't bring the Constitution into this because quite frankly, I don't believe a lot of what's in there. I'm not arguing about current law. I'm arguing about common sense. She chose to have sex. She chose pregnancy. No need to destroy an innocent life in the name of shame/laziness. Arguing that it isn't life is stupid. A baby in the womb 5 minutes before birth isn't dead. It's virtually the same as a born baby, just depending on it's mother for life, as a born baby also would. Actually, I'm not talking about the American Constitution, which I don't give a crap about. I'm talking about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Regardless, the Constitution is the law of your country and you can't simply dismiss it as an argumentative tool because "quite frankly, [you] don't believe a lot of what's in there." Also, common sense was why people believed that the Earth was flat, that mountains became hotter as you climbed higher and the seas became hotter as you sailed south. "Common sense" is a far less valid argumentative tool and piece of evidence than the law. She may have chosen to have sex, but she did not choose pregnancy. If she chose pregnancy, she wouldn't be looking for a freaking abortion. A born baby does not depend on its mother for life, if it did then there wouldn't be single fathers and there would be no place for nurseries or nannies (irrespective of gender). It all comes down to the simple fact that a woman is a protected citizen of a government and is protected in her right to not have her body interfered with without her permission, and that includes being forced to carry a foetus. A foetus is not a protected citizen of any government and is not so protected and holds no such right. To be counted as living things, organisms must have the following characteristics; movement, respiration, sensitivity, growth, homeostasis, reproduction, excretion and nutrition, that is to say that an organism must; 1) Be able to move. 2) Be able to burn food to provide energy. 3) Be able to sense its environment. 4) Be able to grow. 5) Be able to regulate and control its internal environment. 6) Be able to reproduce. 7) Be able to excrete waste. 8) Be able to absorb food for respiration. A foetus does not qualify as it is missing numbers 2, 3, 5, 6 and 8. Lucius Black wrote: Quote: Of course not, don't be foolish. In the case of an abortion, the woman is only doing something to their own body, The annoys the living daylights out of me. Somebody seems to say it every time I debate abortion. She's not just doing something to her body. She's doing it to the child's body. I'm getting sick of that. If that happens every time you debate abortion, has it occurred to you that maybe you're wrong? That maybe, the potential child's potential body is less important than the actual woman's actual body? Is the real reason that you're sick of that because you're wrong and you can't think of a more valid argument than "That's not what I think." Lucius Black wrote: Quote: ....in the case of somebody murdering another sentient person, they are doing something to another person's body, which, as I have stated above, they have no right to do. Again, getting sick of this. Again, is the real reason that you're sick of that because you're wrong and you can't think of a more valid argument than "That's not what I think." _________________ If you see dreadlocks and a staff coming towards you very rapidly, you're in trouble.

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:14 pm
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Lucius Black Sith Apprentice Joined: 06 Jun 2009 Posts: 193 Location: The Asylum Quote: Actually, I'm not talking about the American Constitution, which I don't give a crap about. I'm talking about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Regardless, the Constitution is the law of your country and you can't simply dismiss it as an argumentative tool because "quite frankly, [you] don't believe a lot of what's in there." I'm not dismissing it as an argumentative tool. My views don't fall entirely within the confines of it. I won't use it as an excuse or a tool. I'm stating what I believe, not what a group of men 250-odd years ago believed. Quote: Also, common sense was why people believed that the Earth was flat, that mountains became hotter as you climbed higher and the seas became hotter as you sailed south. "Common sense" is a far less valid argumentative tool and piece of evidence than the law. I'm stating my beliefs. If you don't care for them, don't respond to them. Quote: She may have chosen to have sex, but she did not choose pregnancy. If she chose pregnancy, she wouldn't be looking for a freaking abortion. When you choose sex, you choose possible pregnancy. Condom or no condom. I don't find the stupidity of some people to be a valid reason for an abortion. Quote: A born baby does not depend on its mother for life, if it did then there wouldn't be single fathers and there would be no place for nurseries or nannies (irrespective of gender). You obviously didn't understand what I was saying. A newborn baby depends on someone for life. Whether that person be a father or a doctor or a nanny, they depend on somebody. So does an unborn fetus and people actually cite "it can't live on it's own" as an argument. Quote: It all comes down to the simple fact that a woman is a protected citizen of a government and is protected in her right to not have her body interfered with without her permission, and that includes being forced to carry a foetus. A foetus is not a protected citizen of any government and is not so protected and holds no such right. Great. That doesn't matter to me. I'm debating the morality of abortion. The government allowed slavery and discrimination for hundreds or years. That doesn't automatically make it right. Quote: To be counted as living things, organisms must have the following characteristics; movement, respiration, sensitivity, growth, homeostasis, reproduction, excretion and nutrition, that is to say that an organism must; 1) Be able to move. 2) Be able to burn food to provide energy. 3) Be able to sense its environment. 4) Be able to grow. 5) Be able to regulate and control its internal environment. 6) Be able to reproduce. 7) Be able to excrete waste. Be able to absorb food for respiration. A foetus does not qualify as it is missing numbers 2, 3, 5, 6 and 8. 1. Can be done. 2. This is the responsibility of the mother. 3. So Helen Keller doesn't qualify as human? Tell me, are you familiar with the book "Johnny Get Your Gun?" 4. Grows within the mother. 5. Exactly how do you do that? 6. Believe it or not, there are women incapable of having children. 7. Errr, yeah. 8. Umbilical cord, anyone? Exactly who is making up the criteria for what is considered alive? _________________ ~ Jacob's Blog of Goodness: Updated 8/2 ~ Flash Game Mania

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