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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:23 pm  Reply with quote  
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  Lord Aequitas
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I do believe I never once said he had to commit suicide. I just said he did and that choosing to hide his sexuality contributed to this. I said this because Celestial mentioned hiding sexuality.

And obviously people don't choose to be gay, as has been pointed out several times and backed by evidence - which you have yet to provide, I note.

I agree, we do choose to. But that wasn't the point, Celestial was implying that homosexuals should hide their sexuality. I was merely stating that since heterosexuals needn't hide their sexuality, why should homosexuals.
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Thrax
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Okay, Ven, was he forced to commit suicide? Did anyone tell him to?
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  Venedictos Appo
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Darth Thrax wrote:
Okay, Ven, was he forced to commit suicide? Did anyone tell him to?


The people who indoctrinated him as a child into a belief system that believes his innate attraction to other guys was a disgusting, immoral sin and that he was a freakish, unnatural abomination. They forced him into a mindset and perceived environment whereby his very existence was a wound upon humanity. He was raised to believe that his existence was a disease and humans hate diseases. He was brought up to hate himself and when somone turns hate on themselves, they do no longer want themselves to live.

So they may not have pulled the trigger or slashed his wrists or pushed him off the bridge or hung him from the ceiling or whatever, but they brainwashed him with a false set of "morals" that dictated that his existence was to be hated. People who have been brainwashed are not responsible for their actions, it is the people who brainwashed them who bear the responsibility.

Also, very mature of you to completely ignore Aequitas's post just because it points out that your claims of homosexuality being a choice has no evidence, whereas he has provided evidence showing that it is not a choice.
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Thrax
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Actually, I did not ignore Aequitas' comment. I just did not see it. I went to the post right after mine and hit reply.

And by your logic, you're saying that if a rapist was raised to believe that raping another individual was wrong, but he did it anyway, it would make it okay.
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:09 pm Reply with quote  
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  Venedictos Appo
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Well now you've ignored it, because now you have seen it and have still decided not to reply to it

Also, my logic does not apply to your rapist scenario, for two reasons.

First of all, people are not born rapists but they are born homosexual.

Second of all, if a person of any sexual orientation (because a rapist isn't a rapist until he/she rapes) is raised to believe raping another individual is wrong and then does it anyway, they sexually violate another person, cause them physical harm and invade not only their privacy, but their bodies. If a homosexual is raised to believe having consensual sex with someone of the same gender is wrong, and then does it, all that happens is two (or more) people recieve sexual gratification.

So you're basically saying that the urge to kill, which when acted upon results in death, is the same as the urge to bake, which when acted upon results in cupcakes.
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:36 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Thrax
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Okay, Ven, so you don't cry about it anymore, I'll respond to Aequitas: Actually, there has been proof. I believe Alor posted it about a page back.

And also, Ven, maybe the rapist scenario wouldn't work, but I'm sure another case will: Pedophilia. Ever heard of it?
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Aequitas
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He did post something as evidence to back his claim. I however, was able to discredit it quite simply.

His evidence quotes the APA although it is not the APA's actual website. Infact, it has nothing to do with the APA. I then used quotes from the APA's official website showing that the contrary was true. That's one does not choose one's own sexuality.

Pedophillia is not a sexuality. One is not born with pedophillia. One is born, as I have proven, with homosexuality, just as one is born with heterosexuality.
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:43 pm Reply with quote  
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  Supreme Commander Alor
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Why is someone not born with pedophilia? Now you are discriminating against pedophiles, some of which claim the same argument as the LGBT agenda. That it is a genetic disorder which causes them to be that way. That they were born like that, and that it is not a choice.

Why are you so quickly to discredit their argument, but use the same argument for your own agenda? Yes, pedophilia is a crime, but homosexuality was once a crime too.

And no, I am not supporting either agenda. I am merely pointing out your own hypocrisy. The attitudes and opinions that you are fighting against for homosexuality, are the same attitudes and opinions that you project upon pedophilia. You deny their facts, their claims, yet use the exact claims for your own side of this debate.

You have not proven anything. You have provided an opinion that homosexuality is a condition since birth. That you had no choice. But where is the hard fact? Where is the undeniable truth? You have not proven it. And you did not discredit my own post. I merely provided a link to a site that quoted the APA. Just as Serratus provided many links and quotes from Wikipedia, which is not a reliable, absolute source of evidence and the truth.
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Aequitas
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As Serratus has pointed out before, homosexuality has never harmed anyone. While it may disgust people because of their moral or religious views, it doesn't physically harm them or scar them for life.

Paedophillia does do that. It is physical and mental abuse of a child. It can scar them for life.

As he also pointed out, it is a paraphilia, i.e a sexual disorder.

Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009 wrote:
paraphilia
[per′əfil′yə]
Etymology: Gk, para + philein, to love
sexual perversion or deviation. A condition in which the sexual instinct is expressed in ways that are socially prohibited or unacceptable or are biologically undesirable, such as the use of a nonhuman object for sexual arousal, sexual activity with another person that involves real or simulated suffering or humiliation, or sexual relations with a nonconsenting partner. Kinds of paraphilia include exhibitionism, pedophilia, transvestism, voyeurism, and zoophilia. paraphiliac, adj., n.  


I bolded that which pointed out that it is harmful.

Dorland's Medical Dictionary for Health Consumers. © 2007 wrote:
paraphilia /para·phil·ia/ (par″ah-filŽe-ah) a psychosexual disorder marked by sexual urges, fantasies, and behavior involving objects, suffering or humiliation, or children or other nonconsenting partners.paraphilŽiac


And here, I bolded other information which backs my point. Peadophillia cannot be equated to homosexuality. Homosexuality is a sexuality, not a paraphillia. Homosexuality is not a condition, paraphillia is.

You will also find, I never denied their claims or their facts unless I had evidence to back me up. I am not learned on paraphillia and as such, cannot make sound decisions unless I have appropriate evidence, as I have shown.

While claims may be the same for both parties, because of their difference they cannot be equated. Like I said, one is a sexuality, another a sexual disorder. They are different subjects.

But please, be my guest in posting all the "claims", opinions and facts myself and Serratus have posted and show me how they are the "exact" of those put forward by peadophilles. I didn't know that they were fighting for the right to get married.

We have claimed there is a gay gene, while there is no proof, the APA seem to back us. Paraphilliacs have no reliable, reputable or reknowned organisations backing them.

And if the APA published it, it means that there was a variety of opinions which resembled my own; that homosexuality is not a choice. And those opinions must have come from learned, respected people who came to that conclusion from years of study.

Now, proof is defined as, by Oxford English, "evidence establishing a fact or the truth of a statement."

Evidence is defined as, using the same dictonary, "information or signs indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid".

As such, the APA (which is internationally reknowned and reputable) has published information establishing the fact that homosexuality is not a choice.

As such, I have proven something. Also, you will find I didn't say I discredited your post, but your evidence.

And homosexuality isn't a condition. I don't say because you have a girlfriend, you have a condition. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, just like Heterosexuality. And if you want us to provide proof there is a "gay" gene, we require proof of a "straight" gene.

Yes, homosexuality was a crime, Catholicism was also a crime.

I am not being hypocritical. I do not judge anybody before I have evidence to do so. Since I've never met a peadophille, I refuse to judge them before reading and learning about them. I've met homosexuals, I've met heterosexuals. I've met liberals who support homosexuality, and I've met homophobic people. I've learned from them and I've made decisions based on that. As such, I do not and have not done, projected opinions on peadophillies. I have projected fact.
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:47 am Reply with quote  
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  Major General Celestial
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Lord Aequitas wrote:

I agree, we do choose to. But that wasn't the point, Celestial was implying that homosexuals should hide their sexuality. I was merely stating that since heterosexuals needn't hide their sexuality, why should homosexuals.


I am sorry, but you maistook what I said. I do not want gays to hide theirselves from the world, and I do not wish for them to come out either. It is their decision to come out with it. I was not implying that all homosexuals should hide their sexuality.
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:46 am Reply with quote  
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  Supreme Commander Alor
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A quick note, I will have to withdraw from the debate for the following weeks, as I have Round 2 of Midterms coming up, starting Tuesday. So I will not have the time or mental energy to make constructive posts here, so I will just not bother. This is not a sign of me giving up, I just have more important matters at the moment.

When things settle back down, I will make a post.
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:03 am Reply with quote  
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  High Mage Serratus
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Darth Thrax wrote:
Okay, Ven, so you don't cry about it anymore, I'll respond to Aequitas: Actually, there has been proof. I believe Alor posted it about a page back.

And also, Ven, maybe the rapist scenario wouldn't work, but I'm sure another case will: Pedophilia. Ever heard of it?


What is with you and crying Randy? Do you take pleasure from making people cry? Does it arouse you? Do you get off on it?

If so, unfortunately, I doubt you've ever succeeded in making anyone cry on TDSL. I tend to laugh at the things you say. And it isn't because you crack awesome jokes either.

You should really read the webpages you refer to as "proof", as I said to you in the Lady GaGa discussion thread. The "proof" that Alor posted was falsely concocted by homophobes who then attributed it to the American Psychological Association. Aequitas responded by posting information from the actual APA website, which completely contradicted what Alor posted.

We ask again for your proof.

As I indicated a couple of pages ago, and as Aequitas has reiterated, pedophilia is a paraphilia, a fetish, a sexual disorder, whereas homosexuality is a sexuality, a sexual orientation.

I refer once again to my algebra example;

a = consenting adult
b = non-consenting child
c = consensual relationship

a + a = c

By your logic, a + b = c, therefore a + a = a + b.

So, according to you, a = b, in other words, according to you, a child (who cannot legally consent to anything) is equal to an adult.

Supreme Commander Alor wrote:
Why is someone not born with pedophilia? Now you are discriminating against pedophiles, some of which claim the same argument as the LGBT agenda. That it is a genetic disorder which causes them to be that way. That they were born like that, and that it is not a choice.


I believe that some cases of paedophilia are caused by genetics. I also believe that some cases are caused by personal, developmental and environmental factors like other mental illnesses. The APA finds merit with both theories.

But the the fact of the matter is that paedophilia is a paraphilia (the clue's in the name) and homosexuality is a sexuality (the name kinda gives it away here too).

I refer you to my above equation.

Supreme Commander Alor wrote:
Why are you so quickly to discredit their argument, but use the same argument for your own agenda? Yes, pedophilia is a crime, but homosexuality was once a crime too.


Paedophilia is not a crime. Child abuse is a crime.

And again, paedophilia is a paraphilia, homosexuality is a sexuality.

I refer you once again to my equation.

Supreme Commander Alor wrote:
And no, I am not supporting either agenda. I am merely pointing out your own hypocrisy. The attitudes and opinions that you are fighting against for homosexuality, are the same attitudes and opinions that you project upon pedophilia. You deny their facts, their claims, yet use the exact claims for your own side of this debate.


Once again, paedophilia = paraphilia, homosexuality = sexuality, my equation shows why they're not equatable.

When a paedophile has a romantic and/or sexual relationship with a child (which can never be consensual), he/she inflicts horrible emotional, physical and mental trauma on them which may never be resolved, even after years of therapy.

When two people of the same sex have a consensual romantic and/or sexual relationship with each other, they've got at least as good a chance as being happy as any similar heterosexual couple (and in fact, study made by researchers at the University of Washington, San Diego State University and the University of Vermont found that overall, same-sex couples were happier with each other than heterosexual couples).

As Ven said, it's like comparing killing someone and baking someone a cupcake.

Supreme Commander Alor wrote:
You have not proven anything. You have provided an opinion that homosexuality is a condition since birth. That you had no choice. But where is the hard fact? Where is the undeniable truth? You have not proven it. And you did not discredit my own post. I merely provided a link to a site that quoted the APA. Just as Serratus provided many links and quotes from Wikipedia, which is not a reliable, absolute source of evidence and the truth.


I provided two links to heavily-sourced Wikipedia pages, it was you who quoted Wikipedia. The only other links I provided were to the actual Kinsey Reports, not their Wikipedia page, the only other quotes I provided were from the actual Universal Declaration of Human Rights as displayed on the United Nations website and dictionary definitions from dictionary.com and four reputable dictionaries.

Also, you falsely call Chris and I hypocrites, yet you presented claims concocted by some silly website and falsely attributed to the APA as proof, yet when we present the APA's actual findings, which say there is no choice involved, you say it is not proof.


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